MemberJune 16, 2017 at 12:00 am
The freezer temp has slowly risen over the past few days indicating the fans quit 2-3 days ago probably or worked intermittently. I have removed the fan guards and checked wiring for loose connections, check door switches, fans not iced up, etc. Nothing obvious. Let the unit sit over night and the next day to totally defrost. Plugged back in and tried it this AM. Same issue. The compressor kicks in, condenser fans run. The evap coil starts to frost. The fans just sit like they are not getting a signal to run. The light inside works which is part of the same circuit as the fans I think. I did not separate the wiring from the sheath to check. The fans appear to be daisy chained so if the lead dies so does the other but 100% sure on that. The fans spin easy and quiet with no wobble. I do NOT hear any hum from the motors when they are to be running. All 3 door switches turn the light on/off. So I assume the switches are opening/closing appropriately. So I am thinking bad switch or resistor or indicator stuck. So what resistor, connection, switch or fuse should I check to see why these are not kicking on? Thank you.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 17, 2017 at 10:08 am
Very simple, .Tthe digital control unit has the fans wired seperate and it has dual temp sensors. Temp sensor! Check your digital control for a fan light. It indicates that the fans should be running. If no light Ohm out the sensor. Two blue wires sensors on back of digital control terminals 10 and 11. 11 and 12 are the sensor for box temp.
Also the door switch is a double pole double throw switch that one pole is for the fans, and the others is for the light. Open door fans stop.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 17, 2017 at 10:16 am
I forgot to ask a few basic questions, Is the condenser clean? Do you have any alarm codes on the digital display? And lastly make sure the evaporator probe is still bonded to the coil.
MemberJune 17, 2017 at 3:36 pm
Probe: thought so…I will recheck that
ectofix - NashvilleMemberJune 17, 2017 at 3:51 pm
Sounds like the fan delay function within that controller might’ve gone kaput.
MemberJune 17, 2017 at 5:20 pm
Temp probe is tightly secured in the coil. Loosened the fin grips and did not want to come out. So I think we are ok there.
MemberJune 17, 2017 at 6:16 pm
Fan light is on for the digital display. I taped all the door switches closed so I could watch it run with doors open. Testing the back side of the digital controller (DC) with a multimeter, the fan control (blue wire) in the DC has no power while it is running and the DC is calling for the fans to run (by indicator fan light on the display). I get power on other wires in the DC. So I have power to and from the DC but the fan controller appears dead. Could it be a bad door switch?
MemberJune 17, 2017 at 9:00 pm
All door switches Ohm out ok..nuts. Open.Close and close.open all read 0.04 Ohm or 1 no resistance
* never done this* Correct me if I am wrong
I decided to test the probe in the coil: Using two small paper clips, I inserted them into the female plug side of the sensor so my leads could touch the contacts and not damage the plug. I then touched the other probe to the connector directly above the paper clip. Ohm 0.04. Touching the leads together on my meter: 0.04 Ohm. Then tested the other side in the same manner. 0.04 Ohm. Crossing the leads from paper clip to paper clip yielded 1 or no resistance. Left side paper clip to right side top and vice versa .. 1 or no resistance. Top to top ..1. no resistance. So does this mean the probe is ok??
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 18, 2017 at 9:54 am
Did you check the controller output for ac voltage to the fans?
You can either check for continuity terminals 1 and 2 or 120 volts terminals 2 and 5. You can find a wiring diagram here. http://download.partstown.com/is-bin/intershop.static/WFS/Reedy-PartsTown-Site/-/en_US/manuals/SPRA-Reach-In-R-F_iom.pdf.
Use the last page for your unit. Also verify that the machine has a 4 wire plug and has a good ground. Lack of grounds on solid state within a building allows problems from both ground gradient and harmonics to effect the semiconductors negatively. The fan relay in the controller is only 5 amp rated, and is series wired through all 3 door switches.
MemberJune 18, 2017 at 11:19 am
Yes. #2 slot – fans on controller…no voltage with the fan indicator light illuminated on the controller. I think the controller is bad. Do you think I could jumper power to it to see if they come on or might that really blow something?
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 18, 2017 at 12:47 pm
Testing the back side of the digital controller (DC) with a multimeter, the fan control (blue wire) in the DC has no power while it is running and the DC is calling for the fans to run (by indicator fan light on the display).
The two blue wires are the evaporator thermocouple. To test you would remove them from the DC and ohm them. At the same time you would have to know the temp of the thermister and the manufacturer will provide a chart with the correct value at that temp. Aterately, look up the controller by the manufacturer and model. Dixel will have values on line. If the box is down, the two white wires are the box thermister and will be near the same. But, you have a fan light, so controller is in fan on. Terminal 2 should be powered. 1 and 3 power the compressor relay. .
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 18, 2017 at 1:05 pm
Yes you can safely jump 1 and 2 to see if fans run. They will. But you can’t leave it jumped, because during the defrost phase it will heat the whole box instead of just the evaporator. In other words, you will destroy product.with vast load changes and overload the compressor.
MemberJune 18, 2017 at 1:59 pm
Good points…yes it was just to test the connectivity and that they run to eliminate bad wire inside foam or sheathing. Totally understand cannot do that and impacts but I appreciate the reminder.
MemberJune 19, 2017 at 3:52 pm
Checked the voltage on the DC coming out the back…here are the readings with the DC in fan on mode:
#2: 160.7v What the heck!!!?!?! Within 30 seconds it ranged from 130.2 – 194.3v but stabilized the most at 160.7 v.
checked voltage at the fans…same 160.7
Where could it be getting that type of voltage? It was zero last night when I checked it…but if I wiggle the probe this is what I get…wacky voltages. No other line does this. Going to look at the DC and see if something inside is amiss.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 19, 2017 at 6:53 pm
You have a house or feed neutral problem to the machine. Check at the wall plug for 230/120. leg to leg-230 or so, leg to neutral 120, other leg to neutral 120. and neutral to ground. Then plug in the machine and check inside the main block. Especialy the neutral to ground.
Sounds like a open or high resistance neutral. Lighting will feed back threw the fans, but the fans can’t get enough to run.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 19, 2017 at 6:55 pm
Oh, This machine does require a 4 prong plug with a separate ground and neutral to function correctly.
MemberJune 20, 2017 at 9:29 am
leg to leg: 239
y leg to neu:121
x leg to neu:120.9
neu to gnd: 0
Main block? This unit spiders out to various feeds and never runs into a main terminal connection. There is one area that feeds the compressor and condenser fans but is isolated to some degree. I can check that but I did check the main line prior to the split to the compressor feeds and the controller feeds…120v on both sides and gnd 2 neu: 0 volts the same as the wall. Going to pull the DC and look at it to see if I see anything funky as that is where I get strange readings. I did jumper the fans to the condersor fan feeds to see if they run and they did…let it go for 15 mins…box dropped from 68 to 45 no problem so I shut it down and pulled the wire. I am considering it is a controller problem. Looking at it now.
MemberJune 20, 2017 at 10:36 am
DC Controller terminal block. The #2 hole within the terminal block is loose within the block. Meaning it moves enough to cause swings in the voltage…the fans run intermittently when they get proper power. If I wedge my probe in a certain area…the machine runs. I think the terminal block on the controller has vibrated loose on port 2 from the board or sustained a power jolt. I saw no burning on the motherboard though when I took the controller casing off. If this is the case, I have no idea how to fix it other than buy a new or used one. Any ideas?
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 20, 2017 at 10:42 am
The problem I see from you test on the DC. The I don.t know what you used for a reference point to make your measurements. Chassis ground perhaps or terminal 2 to 5. If the DC was closed for the fan, 1 and 2 will be the same. Being 2 was high ,. it goes to the fans, then the door switches, then the neutral line. Because it was high, you either have a induced created voltage with no load, or a cross feed from the red line to a open neutral. 5 goes directly to neutral (white) line.
Be very careful on this machine if you use their power switch, as it switches only the neutral and black line.(Double pole switch) Red is always hot directly to the compressor and condenser fans. So it is hot even when off.
While we are on that, You may also have a resistance in one leg of the power switch causing the high reading as it is a neutral between your control/fans and the power plug. You definitely have a open controller, but I am concerned about the stray voltage and what it can do with only a 5 amp relay. Destroy a new one?
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 20, 2017 at 11:10 am
The terminal block is soldered to the board. These controllers are know for failure, buy a new one. But measure a voltage over the power switch white to white under load to make sure the switch has no resistance on the neutral leg.
MemberJune 20, 2017 at 11:14 am
I used chassis ground. I noticed it was hot all around when I started separating wires…tested and saw HOT even though off. So I unplug it from the wall each time.
MemberJune 20, 2017 at 11:18 am
solder looks good on the board…but the link above is looser than the others….could just be a symptom not a cause due to voltage variation. Will look at the switch. Thank you.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 20, 2017 at 11:25 am
What model and make of controller?
MemberJune 20, 2017 at 12:48 pm
In the off but powered position of the switch white to white…it reads 55.9 v . When switched on and powered on white to white 0V. Testing Ohms on switch…indicates working as should.
Model and Make of controller: XR06CX – 4N1F1..
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 20, 2017 at 2:58 pm
By the numbers it has to be a Dixell. Sold by Emerson, made in china, Used by Norlake, Altro-Sham and others.
As for the voltage on the neutral leg when open, You either have a bleed from the compressor contractor going threw the winding or a capacitor. The Compressor contractor is a single pole. Then somehow there is a conductive path across the contractor. The only other senario I can think of is the power switch is not disconnecting the black line curcuit and your reading munion heater power bleed.
Check black to white on both sides of switch in both on and off positions. Then black to oppisite white with switch off both ways. That will tell us where it’s coming from..
MemberJune 20, 2017 at 4:31 pm
Ok…i will check that
Sent from my Samsung Smart Phone
ectofix - NashvilleMemberJune 20, 2017 at 6:44 pm
I used chassis ground. I noticed it was hot all around when I started separating wires…tested and saw HOT even though off. So I unplug it from the wall each time.
DISCLAIMER: I didn’t read ALL of this thread, but this statement alarmed me.
I caution you to NEVER use chassis ground as a reference while making voltage readings …as the NORM…unless you are absolutely CERTAIN that ground is a part of that particular circuit. Doing so will send you on a wild goose chase!
I can elaborate if necessary. Let me know and I will. I’ve simply seen too many EXPERIENCED techs make that very same mistake. They tend to get defensive when I correct them, but I don’t give up and they eventually get it.
Albumen, I know you’re an owner/operator with some FAIRLY creditable knowledge. But I don’t know what you DON’T know.
MemberJune 20, 2017 at 6:57 pm
Voltages OFF ON
Blk (top) to White (top): 48 120.5
Blk (btm) to white (btm): 56.3 0
Blk (top) to White (btm): 120.7 120.6
Blk (btm) to white (top): 0 120.8
MemberJune 20, 2017 at 7:15 pm
I appreciate the feedback…no anger here as I am not an electrician always willing to learn. If you could elaborate in a short iteration, I would appreciate that to gain further understanding. However, I can see your point as to keep the test within the limits of the circuit you are working on right?
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 20, 2017 at 9:01 pm
This is not right in any form. Which side does the switch get feed from, top or bottom? It sounds like from what you have said that it is cross wired on the switch. One side in the off should be 120. pole to pole. The other 0 This cross wire may be part of what is going on. . Is the switch a 2 pole single throw, or two pole double throw. (6 terminals or 4) that they are only using 4
Have you got a wiggin? I want you to safely test the ground, neutral for continuity. Don’t like the stray voltage at the switch
Are the evaporator fans ECDM motors?
MemberJune 21, 2017 at 9:51 am
I agree these voltages are not right in any form. This switch remains illuminated in the on/off position which I thought was weird. Is it suppose to be that way??? How long has it been like that…I do not know. I have not turned it off to check…it is never empty so it is not turned off ever. I bought it from an auction where it had damage in transport. The unit was checked out by professional people for AC leaks and electrical components and given an all clear. It has ran for me untouched for 3 years.
Cross wired: if so, it has been like that for a long time…maybe it finally gave up if that is the case?
Switch: I believe it is a 2 pole double throw. Here is picture. They are using only 4 terminals of the 6.
Motors: Sorry Fixbear…I do not know how to tell. We are rapidly reaching my abilities. Tell me how to check I will do my best.
Wiggins: I do not have one but I can get one which would be a good idea here. Just so we are on the same page what I have seen referred to as a wiggins is a tester with spring loaded leads so to test close proximity without touching…is that what you were referring to? I currently have a digital multimeter that I use for all voltage checks.
In this picture the “ON” is the top of the switch. Off is the bottom when referring to my previous voltages I submitted. Maybe that will help clarify the above readings. Feed here is coming from the power plug.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 21, 2017 at 11:04 am
Top of the switch is on the left in the picture. Right.
Now we are getting somewhere. Swap the two white wires. I didn’t know you had a lighted switch. That is likely the backfeed voltage we see with the switch poles. The infeed belongs on the two center spade terminals. Light will then be out unless switch is on. If not, swap whites back and swap blacks. The switch light is internally wired across the two terminals (black/white) on the right side
A Wiggen is a quick voltage/continuity tester with a magnetic coil against a spring. It also has 2 LED’s for polarity and AC/DC determination. Measures AC and DC voltage, polarity, and continuity. Your local electric house will have one. I’m on my 3rd in 40 years and like Square D. Leads on them are replaceable. .They are used more often than a multi-meter because they create a load on the circuit and don’t give false readings. However, do not use on critical solid state. Today’s multi-meters are almost all low impedance for electronics. And yes I miss my old Simpson 260 analog.
As for the fan motors, If you look at the back of the motor, it will have a thick full diameter colored plastic case if ECDM. What they are beside expensive is a electronically commutated DC motor that uses 1/4 the power of a shunt wound motor or 1/2 the power of a PSC motor. The EPA started requiring them about 5 years ago. They are sensitive to surges and harmonics. I have not seen a benifit from them as they cost more the the savings and have had a record of short life.
MemberJune 21, 2017 at 11:10 am
yes top is on the left.
MemberJune 21, 2017 at 4:50 pm
Ok…the light is not out in the off position with the infeeds on the center terminals. So I swapped as you suggested so now the infeed is on both of the bottom terminals. The light is out in the off position and on in the on position. Did I read your comment correctly?
I did not get a chance to get a wiggins today…perhaps tomorrow.
Motors: all machined aluminum with a black painted coil strip in the center.
ectofix - NashvilleMemberJune 21, 2017 at 8:22 pm
My head is swimming from reading all of this thread. The methodology of TechTOWN’s timeline within threads doesn’t help any.
So you swapped the wires on the switch? That should at least make it like it should be. Supply for both poles of the switch coming in on the same side of it and load also on the same side. Makes things more logical when you’re jumping around the circuit with meter leads.
In your picture of the switch – that IS just one switch, RIGHT? Hard to tell as pictured. Almost looks like two separate switches. The schematic illustrates the main power switch as just a double-pole/single-throw (one switch). Either on or off. OFF position doesn’t count as a pole.
What is it that you wiggled and caused the voltage changed? Whatever it was, that’s a problem. Take a better look at that and fix/replace it.
ANYWAY. Now it’s my turn. I’ll make your brain swim with a quick lesson on reading circuit voltages:
Reading voltage while referencing GROUND (as a COMMON point for the functioning components [the LOAD]) only works when ground is part of THAT circuit. In MOST appliances, USUALLY (but not always), ground is NOT part of the circuit. A schematic will illustrate whether or not it is. When it IS, it’s generally done to serve a low voltage sub-circuit (like 24v) within the unit from a built-in transformer…OR…where a spark will jump to it to ignite a flame for a stove or an oven. However, IN THIS FREEZER, neither is the case.
So, NEUTRAL should your reference when reading the 120v circuit. In your freezer, that includes everything except the compressor and the condenser fans. For THOSE, you would reference the other line coming in (for the 230ish volts).
The reason I say to NOT use ground? Well, although ground and neutral are, indeed, bonded W-A-A-A-Y back in the service panel, there’s a WHOLE lotta wires and connections separating those two legs. Besides, the GROUND wire (green) coming in is merely there to be connected to the unit’s metal CHASSIS…for safety reasons. Specifically, it’s there to trip a breaker if LINE comes into contact and shorts to chassis. Otherwise, if that happened and the chassis WASN’T grounded, then the metal frame in the unit becomes LIVE and therefore a shock hazard.
You need to be referencing the circuit’s (and component’s) NEUTRAL leg for a proper input. That’s the typical troubleshooting practice. Only use a suitable reference point (neutral or the other line…depending on the circuit voltage) at the onset of your voltage testing.
However, what if those voltages aren’t making sense? (as is your case) I always tell guys “Look at the problem the way the malfunctioning LOAD sees it”. So looking at it that way, forget that reference point. Your so-called reference (neutral or the OTHER line in) PROVED that it’s present where it comes into the unit, but is the LOAD seeing it?
The next step is to put your lead across THE COMPONENT. If that light, motor, element, etc. isn’t getting it, then the voltage is being dropped elsewhere. Whether it’s an outright OPEN in that component’s supply circuit…or a resistance that’s dropping the voltage to a point that’s not usable by the load.
Remembering the basics:
Ya gotta narrow it down. That doesn’t change and the problem is usually (but not always) in only ONE of them.
With that in mind, then you gotta get down-‘n -dirty by doing a bit more walking around within the circuit with your test leads and observing for other deviations with what’s expected versus what you’re actually reading. As said before…you’d then move that second test lead off of your trusty reference point…and walk it around to narrow down to the actual fault in the circuit.
So if you’re NOT getting proper input to a load, here’s another ploy. Much like an ohmmeter, but employing your voltmeter instead. It allows you to follow the OTHER rule of electrical troubleshooting that I tell the guys: “Troubleshoot a problem under the conditions which it occurs”. An ohmmeter…with its meager 9vdc battery…doesn’t allow you to do that. It doesn’t provide a true test of the circuit’s stamina. A circuit in operation at 120v (or 230v) is under conditions that it’s designed to operate. The measly ohmmeter battery simply can’t go there.
NOW. There’s a KEY thing to realize about your voltmeter. Your voltmeter only reads a DIFFERENCE in potential (voltage) between two test points in a circuit. For instance:
- If you read across a CLOSED switch (one side of it to the other) or… one end of a wire…to the other, there should NO difference in potential. Therefore, 0v would be read on the meter.
- Otherwise, If you read across an OPEN switch, you would read SOURCE voltage applied to the circuit (as long as nothing’s downstream of that circuit that may be open). So in a 120v circuit, you’d read 120v across that switch.
H-O-W-E-V-E-R. What if you connected your meter read ACROSS a CLOSED switch and it reads 30 volts (instead of 0v)? 50 volts (instead of 0v)? Maybe even 120 volts (instead of 0v)?
Well, the meter is now reading a difference of potential when there shouldn’t be one. So then you’ve revealed a RESISTANCE there that shouldn’t be there. Whether a SLIGHT resistance….or an OPEN. These can be caused by:
- An “iffy” wire connection.
- switch/relay contacts that are pitted or carboned up.
- a bad solder joint on a board.
Such conditions MIGHT conduct electricity. Maybe electricity that a 9vdc battery in an ohmmeter cannot properly “stress-test”., But having that resistance due to an aforementioned flaw…with normal circuit voltage applied….might fail to a point where it will heat up (at the connection) and drop enough voltage to prevent whatever’s downstream from performing properly…or at ALL.
I could go on…and on…AND ON – but that’s all I have to offer for now. Troubleshooting electricity definitely requires knowledge AND application of its fundamentals. Experience in doing so ALWAYS contributes to greater a understanding for… the NEXT time.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 22, 2017 at 7:45 am
Nicely verbalized ectofix.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 22, 2017 at 7:53 am
Now that you have the switch wired correctly. Recheck the voltages across the switch as before. The trace wild voltages should be gone. Now you can replace the controller without fear of damaging a new one.
MemberJune 22, 2017 at 9:32 pm
I have scrolled too quickly thru this thread so apologies if I overlooked.
What is the OP using to measure voltages? Does your DMM have a Low-Z function?
Need to book mark and re read as anything that fix and ecto have engaged is well worth the read even though I have no familiarity with this particular piece of equipment.
MemberJune 23, 2017 at 12:19 pm
Thank you so much. I appreciate you spending the time to share your knowledge.
MemberJune 23, 2017 at 12:29 pm
Thank you Fixbear. Could not of solved this without your guidance. Appreciate the time you spent. BTW: Had a tech come out as 60″ prep table not cooling but everything running…he added some freon, used a $199 sniffer (per what he told me) to tell me it is a leak in the evap coil he thought but could not be sure unless he spent more time and this unit not worth it. He had another call. Sent him on…bill $581..took under an hour. I would of hated to see what this bill would of been even if he spent half the time I did. Thank you so much.
MemberJune 23, 2017 at 12:37 pm
Stray voltage gone. Controller replaced. Voltage off the #2 fans using #5 neutral as a reference yields 118.7 volts. Fans running as they should. Temp holding at 1 degree F all day. Controller went out perhaps due to mixed switch inputs(been like that for 3 years) or power surge due to storms or both. Not sure but I think we are done here. Thank you.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 23, 2017 at 3:35 pm
There is only one leak detector I trust. I have bought many over the years and always come back to a H-10. Originally by GE and 110 volts, now other brands sell it. I think now they are Mars. H-10G is battery powered. They will detect .2 oz per year leak. But inside a cold compartment one has to watch out for fumes from mold setting it off. Unless they have a air pump and pull air over the reactor sensor, they are not reliable. As for cost, H-10 G are about 400. My first H-10 cost me 500 in the early nineties.
As for your bill, we have no idea as to what refrigerant is in your case. They vary in price a lot and if your have a old R-12 unit that he topped off with a lb, it alone would be a high amount. He does have to cover his time door to door.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberJune 23, 2017 at 8:08 pm
congratulations to you , albumen. You stuck with it threw my endless questions and accually found the real problem without replacing a hundred parts you didn’t need. Good Job
MemberOctober 21, 2019 at 12:19 pm
Hi…sually all 404a freezers only have a delay when turning on, the ones at other locations shut off as soon as the timer kicks out. Don’t know about time delay though, unit’s pretty basic, don’t remember seeing anything fancy. Its basically a compressor hooked up to a pressure control and defrost timer, no electronics what so ever. Heck, even the thermostat is bypassed.
fixbear - ADK NYMemberOctober 21, 2019 at 2:56 pm
With a Dixell freezer control the timer and coil thermodisc are gone. Defrost is controlled by the Dixell as well as fan on delay, compressor, and defrost temination to allow the evaporator to chill before moving air.
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