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  • Deep fryer’s got issues

     badbozo2315 updated 6 months, 1 week ago 8 Members · 63 Posts
  • guest

    Member
    July 16, 2018 at 12:00 am

    Hey Guys,

     

    So I am running into an issue with my 3 bin deep fryer, model is: FM3CFESC and serial is: 0911HJ0011,10,09 for all 3 bins.

     

    2 of the 3 are intermittently dying while running, the main flame will be on and it will suddenly just turn off along with the pilot (if I remember correctly).

     

    I know there is a thermopile for the pilot but I am not sure how it monitors the main flame, any ideas anyone?

  • fixbear

    Member
    July 16, 2018 at 1:46 pm

    You may want to check the drain valve switches that the valve has been placed all the way.  Also that the gas coupling is fully locked on.  And as with any fryer, high limit connections and wiring to the valves.

     

    I believe that on the CFE’s, they use a hybred gas valve.  The pilot is millvolt and the main is 24 volt.

    This may help to troublshoot

  • ectofix

    Member
    July 16, 2018 at 4:43 pm

    As fixbear said, check to be sure the gas hose quick disconnect is fully seated.  If it’s not fully seated, it can pass SOME gas, but greater demand from all three fryers being on will starve all three fryers.  That can weaken the pilot flames enough to cause thermopile output to eventually drop below the minimum needed to keep the pilot valves open.

  • olivero

    Member
    July 16, 2018 at 10:00 pm

    Hey Guys,

     

    I checked the hose, its fully connected. It’s funny you mentioned it because I had a thing like that a couple of weeks ago and I was completely stumped, figured it could ONLY be the hose, so I gave it a shot and sure enough, it was only partially open, very odd.

     

    So here’s my question, on the traditional “Zero gas pressure system” like Cleveland, Welbilt or whatever it is these days so graciously calls it. There is always a flame sensor of sorts, mostly that’s spark or hot surface ignition, they don’t really deal with the pilot ignition style so I am not too familiar with it.

     

    What monitors the flame? How does it know the main gas valve is open and the main flame is on? It seems there is nothing there monitoring the main flame other than the temp sensor as the indicator light that tells you the fryer is heating will stay lit even if there is no main flame present.

     

    I just asked the chef, he said everything went dead, pilot and main flame, had to relight the pilot and then it worked but died again after some time. 

     

    I’ve removed the thermopile on the center one (its center and the right one having issues) and cleaned it off before when it was having issues with just the pilot going out, that fixed it.

     

    So from what I get from this, the thermopile is what’s keeping the valve open, if that signal (minimum if 200 Mili Volts) drops, it won’t open the main valve which fuels the main flame, is that right?

     

    I guess the part I don’t understand is what is the flame sensor here?

  • fixbear

    Member
    July 17, 2018 at 5:06 am

    The millivolt power from the thermo-pile is the monitor of flame. Problem I see is that a thermopile should be 750 millivolt.  If your dropping to 200, check the pilot flame to be correct and placed correctly on the generator. A minor amount of dust in the pilot orfice and air sytem will change the BTU output drastically.  There by changing the power output.

  • olivero

    Member
    July 17, 2018 at 11:49 am

    Okay, good to know. I haven;t measured it yet, the 200 milivolt was what Frymaster said to look for.

     

    So regardless of what the big flame is doing, the pilot goes out, the main flame goes out as the valve shuts?

  • olivero

    Member
    July 17, 2018 at 5:03 pm

    Okay,

     

    I checked MV signal on both units, the one on the right is about 400 MV, I checked the center one, it was about 300, made the pilot a bit bigger and moved the thermopile closer to the pilot and it went to 500 MV.

  • ectofix

    Member
    July 17, 2018 at 5:55 pm

    You voltages look good then.  Just be sure there’s no voltage drops across the connections to the combination valves.

     

    NEXT – sit, watch and monitor.  Monitor fryer temps.  Monitor thermopile voltages.  Make sure those aren’t slowly dropping and the fryers aren’t overheating.  Frymaster’s high-limits trip at around 425 degrees and automatically reset at around 350 degrees.

  • olivero

    Member
    July 18, 2018 at 10:15 am

    Okay, So I’ll go see when they are cooking with it later today.

     

    Thanks for the help guys.

  • fixbear

    Member
    July 18, 2018 at 11:02 am

    Olivero, it’s not unusual for the firing rate of a pilot to change in a high volume kitchen and cause trips.  I had a customer that I could reliably recieve a call from every couple of months for vulcan ovens. They bring in all the stock twice a week right down the line and at the end of the line was where the driver dropped it.  Next to the ovens. The kitchen would then break the boxes down and store the supplies right there.  Cardboard dust fibers would accumulate in the pilot air intakes changing the mixture. Hydraulic valves are very sensitive to temp,  so one side or the other would quit. It got where every 2 mouths I would just pull and clean the pilots for the heck of it if I was near..

  • olivero

    Member
    July 18, 2018 at 12:00 pm

    interesting, that is also something I can check if needed, thank you for the information.

  • ectofix

    Member
    July 18, 2018 at 4:38 pm

    AHHH!  I re-read what I’d written yesterday and see that I accidentally chopped something out.  This site kept kicking me off yesterday while I was composing that lengthy post.

     

    Look back at my earlier post.  The paragraph I’ve highlighted there in red is now rewritten HERE – with additional information I previously left out now added – in RED:

     

    “FWIW:  A thermopile can generate UP to 750mV.  On those basic millivolt systems (not yours), the load of keeping the pilot valve coil energized usually drops that to around 600mV.  When a millivolt fryer’s thermostat calls for heat, the additional load of the MAIN valve coil will drop the thermopile voltage to AROUND 250mV – which is considerably lower than power needed for just the pilot valve…but well above the minimum of 200mV that Frymaster had stated.

    So…with your fryer only utilizing thermopile output for just the pilot, I would think that your voltage would be WELL above 200mV and read more like 500-600mV.”

  • ectofix

    Member
    July 18, 2018 at 4:41 pm

    (ORIGINALLY POSTED 7/17/2018)

     

    200mV would be the MINIMUM the thermopile is supplying under a load (energizing the pilot solenoid valve coil.

     

    olivero, I’m surprised you’re not familiar with a millivolt system.  Then again, the equipment you work on in-house would dictate your experience.  I get it.

    Yes, the safety is all based around the pilot.  If the pilot goes out, the main burner goes out.  That’s the safety function of the combination valve.  The combination valve incorporates everything that was once used as a GAS CHAIN….but into a smaller package  Here’s a video about the gas chain:

    The gas chain control for gas furnaces – YouTube 

     

    Your basic standard commercial range ovens are really the only cooking equipment that still uses THERMOCOUPLES nowadays.  I’m sure you have some of those. 

    Millivolt systems (like on some fryers, some old tilt skillets, some deck ovens) use a THERMOPILE instead of a thermocouple.  A thermopile generate 750mV.  A thermocouple only generates 30mV.  As put to me almost TOO simply years ago, a THERMOPILE is just a whole bunch of thermocouples PILED on top of each other.

     

    BTW:  Don’t confuse thermocouples used in pilot safety circuits with thermocouples used as temperature probes.  The latter is a whole other topic.  They both generate DC voltage, but for entirely different reasons.

     

    SO…many fryers using the millivolt system power BOTH – the pilot valve AND the main burner valve.  Those are the most basic fryers.  No power cord is needed.

    That Frymaster just powers the pilot valve ONLY with the thermopile…simply to employ the pilot safety feature.  The main valve is powered from a 24v transformer via the Fenwal thermostat (in your case).  Despite the differing power sources, the PILOT is the master of it all.  If the pilot valve closes, it also shuts down main burner flow.

     

    Frymaster said you want 200mV.  That’s because if the thermopile voltage drops much lower, the pilot valve will open.  TRUTHFULLY, lockout normally doesn’t occure until under 100mV.  It takes about 150mV for the valve to hold in while you’re lighting the pilot (my experience). 

     

    FWIW:  A thermopile can generate UP to 750mV.  On those basic millivolt systems (no yours), the load of keeping the pilot valve coil energized usually drops that to around 600mV.  When a millivolt fryer’s thermostat calls for heat, the additional load of the MAIN valve coil will drop to only needs to power the pilot.  I would think that your voltage would be WELL above that, since it doesn’t have any additional load.  (NOTE:  This is incomplete info.  See additional post BELOW)

     

    If I was in your situation, I’d first check gas pressure to the fryer.  You want 7″WC minimum – whether it’s just with one fryer running, all three…or the whole cooking line.  7″ minimum.

    NOW, there’s a pressure regulator INSIDE the combination valve.  Be aware that IT only regulates MAIN burner pressure.  So the pilot should be seeing that 7″ source pressure.  That’s the first reason why incoming pressure is important.

    The SECOND thing I’d be checking is the pilot’s flame quality.  If it’s clogged from grease and debris, then the subsequently weak flame might be causing thermopile output to drop over time.

    The THIRD thing is wire connections from the thermpile to the valve.  Beings it’s only three-quarters of a volt MAX, keep in mind that such a low voltage may not be capable of punching through any loose or corroded connections.  You DO NOT want any bad connections to cause a resistance to such a low voltage, since the slightest resistance in such a low voltage circuit can be monumental.

     

    Once you’ve scrutinized all of that and are satisfied that it’s all good,, then move on to troubleshooting with fryer temperature in mind.  The high-limit is in series with the thermopile’s circuit to the pilot coil.  If the high-limit opens, then the entire fryer shuts down.

     

    I’ll continue on your latest post…

  • olivero

    Member
    July 18, 2018 at 5:00 pm

    Haha, well there you go, makes more sense.

     

    The center one was only reading about 250 MV with just the pilot, I Turned up the flame a little and moved the pile closer to the pilot and it went up to 500MV, even when its running with full flame, its about 300-400 MV so I think it’s good.

     

    They’ve been using it for about 4 or 5 hours now, no problems.

  • ectofix

    Member
    July 18, 2018 at 5:11 pm

    The voltages I’d stated might be a bit too optimistic.  If it’s 300-400mV and holding steady under all conditions, then it sounds like you got it.  

  • olivero

    Member
    July 18, 2018 at 5:13 pm

    I Sure hope so, I’l let you know at the end of tonight.

     

    Thanks for the help guys, you’r faster than Frymaster, lol.

  • olivero

    Member
    July 19, 2018 at 4:55 pm

    Look’s like we’re good.

     

    Thanks a lot guys.

  • olivero

    Member
    May 15, 2019 at 9:00 pm

    Nevermind. I lied we’re not good and I want to roll this thing into the dumpster.

     

    Center bin is the most troublesome, on and off it shuts off intermittently, no pattern, no consistency and it’s driving me up the wall.

     

    I just recently changed the thermopile, then it worked Ok for a week, no problems. THEN it started again so I changed the high limit and the gas valve, because, why not?

     

    Worked OK for a week, same thing.

     

    Well, dumpster time.

     

    So now I pulled the burner down, well, more like dropped it. Pulled the pilot out and gave it my best intimidating stare, then pulled it apart. 

     

    One thing i’ve noticed is that these won’t allow you to adjust the pilot flame, you can turn the screw inside but it doesen’t increase. SO, I figured, it’s gotta be something other than the mechanics of it, perhaps airflow or something of the sort is blowing it out in some way, perhaps if I increase the pilot flame it’ll be better. But I can’t.

     

    I ended up drilling out the orifice in the pilot so I can get some more flame, just a bit more, don’t judge me so harshly. NOW there’s flame like I want to see it, had to turn it way down BUT It’s very adjustable and I think it’ll have a better chance of surviving now. Only time will tell.

     

    It’s driving me crazy though, tried cleaning all the connections, sanding the ground, the stuff I mentioned above and it just won’t stop doing it, this is over weeks and weeks, immediately it looks fine, measures fine, everything’s great and all of a sudden, boom, it’s off.

     

    They also had an issue with one of the other compartments today which is why I think it might be an airflow thing, but the center one is habitually more troublesome.

     

    Any help is appreciated.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 16, 2019 at 7:21 pm

    I’ve rarely seen an airflow problem blow out a pilot on fryers.  It takes allot to blow out a good, clean pilot flame.  Try to do that yourself.

    It’d have to be some serious undesirable draft to do so.

     

    Pilots on millivolt setups do require some upkeep.  If the pilot flame gets weak due to buildup around its orifice…or air getting to it, then the pilot might appear fine, but could prove to be weak when the circuit is under a load.  Nearby sources of grease (griddles, chargrills, poor ventilation) are sources for air-bound grease to get sucked right in there to clog ESPECIALLY pilot burners.

     

    olivero, is that fryer strictly a millivolt setup (no power cord for the actual fryer), or one with the thermopile only powering the pilot valve while the main valve runs off 24vac (has a power cord)? 

    Don’t let the existence of a power cord fool ya.  Some “strictly” millivolt fryers might still have a power cord just to run a filter system…if it has one.

     

    ANYWAY.  If it’s a strictly millivolt-powered heating circuit, then cleanliness of the pilot becomes especially critical.  In THOSE fryers, the thermopile must power TWO valves (pilot & main).

     

    AGAIN, along with making sure the pilot has no blockages, a mVDC voltmeter can tell you what’s going on.  I’ve actually used my mVDC meter reading just to set proper gas flow to the pilot.  A pilot’s burner pressure in a fryer isn’t regulated by the fryer gas valve’s internal regulator, so the adjustment screw is really the only way to set a proper pilot flame.  EYEBALLING it isn’t the way to do that.  The mVDC output of the thermopile while under a load is the correct way.

     

    So, once it’s in a heat cycle and the mVDC reading expectantly drops under a load, watch that voltage for awhile.  Monitor it.  It shouldn’t be s-l-o-w-l-y dropping MORE – a volt a time.  It should maintain whatever it first settled at when you turned the thermostat on.

    If NOT, then you have a gas or airflow problem supplying the fryer. 

     

    I probably don’t need to to tell you this, but I’ll say this anyway.  Make sure you have a minimum of 7″WC coming into the fryer under ALL cook line conditions.  Fire EVERYTHING up from a cold start, then check your main gas supply pressures.  7″ MINIMUM.  Any lower is out of specs for MOST cooking equipment.

     

    I’ll add one more thing:  IF…your main line pressure falls within an acceptable 1/2 psi or less (BEFORE any line regulators)…AND – you have a dedicated line pressure regulator just for the fryers – REMOVE THEM.  If your main is already within range, then you don’t need a line regulator for fryers.  The fryer(s) already have built-in regulators, so having an addition line regulator is redundant and just something else that will eventually fail and cause you grief.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 16, 2019 at 9:19 pm

    You never said if the main burner is lighting normal or violently.  I have seen a violent ignition extinguish all.  Usually related to a clogged chimney and major flame roll-out..

  • olivero

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 8:30 am

    Let me try to answer everything.

     

    I’ve checked gas pressure, it’s fine, there is no redundant regulator, only the ones in the fryer it self.

     

    This problem didn’t always exist, the burners don’t blow out the flame from what I can see, it does tend to drag the pilot flame around a little but it doesen’t go out. I Figured if I can make the pilot flame bigger/stronger, it would prevent it from going out. After having replaced the thermopile, gas valve and high limit, there’s not much else in play to keep that flame alive.

     

    What is a rough ignition of the main burners? What’s it supposed to look like? I’ve looked at all 3 and they all seem the same to me, none is more violent than the other.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 10:23 am

    olivero wrote:

    What is a rough ignition of the main burners? What’s it supposed to look like? I’ve looked at all 3 and they all seem the same to me, none is more violent than the other.

    You would know, a large VROOM.   Any flame roll out to the frount?  Is the regulator vent line clean?

     

    You can clamp your millivolt meter to the pilot valve and watch it change as you adjust the pilot.

  • olivero

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 11:44 am

    Vent line is clear, no flame roll out. Nothing looks out of the ordinary.

  • tonyd

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 12:22 pm

    I agree. This needs to be looked at from the electrical aspect. If you light your pilot with the t-pile Leeds off the valve and it has been in flame for more then two min then the pile should be producing around 750 Mvdc. When you hook the wires to the valve and allow the pilot to be on by itself then you should see any where between 150 and a 200 mvdc  drop from the starting reading. Same when you turn the main burners on. Your mvdc reading with burners on hold be greater than 250 mvdc. If it is less you have a restricted pilot. Rarely have I seen a valve cause this unless it has a blocked vent tube. That would be shown when the burners turn on and the pilot flame shrinks. For me I would bypass all switches and see if the problem continues. Note this is a dangerous test and you need to watch the oil temp. I would look at loose wire connection to be you root cause. Then I would look out side the box to see what temp the gas valve is being subjected to. Post picks and maybe one of us can see something to get you in a better place. 

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 3:07 pm

    This sounds to be intermittent.  Attach your MVdc meter to the pilot valve, Take a plastic handle screwdriver and wiggle the wires, tap the safety, tap the valve.  A recording meter makes this easier to spot a variation. 

     

    On a side,  I seem to remember that at one point in time Frymaster had to up-size the pilot wire gauge from a problem like this. How old of a unit is this.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 3:23 pm

    fixbear wrote:

     

    On a side,  I seem to remember that at one point in time Frymaster had to up-size the pilot wire gauge from a problem like this. How old of a unit is this.

    Per the serial numbers he provided, they’re 2009 models.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 4:14 pm

    olivero wrote:

     

    What is a rough ignition of the main burners? What’s it supposed to look like? I’ve looked at all 3 and they all seem the same to me, none is more violent than the other.

    Here’s a video I made years ago of a target burner lighting off:

    Target Burner – YouTube 

     

    Their design DOES seem rough when compared to standard burner systems.  On those, you gotta be sure there are no clogged burner orifices.  If there’s a blockage, then they become even MORE entertaining.

    There’s also a requirement to adjust each of the target faces so the side targets are 3/4″ from the frypot.  The rear target setting is 1″, but it may be affixed to the frypot assembly and not adjustable.

     

    If you’d removed the burner assembly, you will need to check that after re-assembly.

     

    Here in a few hours, I’ll upload a video for you of a PPT presentation explaining all that.

     

    EDIT:  Nevermind about my uploading another vid.  It was on a stand-alone millivolt system.  Yours isn’t.  Your model number indicates that it’s a fryer which uses a temperature control which supplies 24v to the main valve.  So…the thermopile only powers the pilot valve.

     

    I don’t know if we’d covered this, but make sure ALL connections from the thermopile, through the hi-limit and to the gas valve are good, clean and tight.  ANY poor connection is a huge obstacle to a 750mV power source, since there’s not enough “push” behind that low of a voltage to punch through an iffy connection.

    EXAMPLE:  You ever have a flashlight go stupid on you and required that you had to shake it?  WELL…a single AAA battery has TWICE the voltage output as a thermopile. 

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 5:12 pm

    ectofix wrote:

    Here’s a video I made years ago of a target burner lighting off:

    Target Burner – YouTube

    Little bit lean eh

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 5:15 pm

    That should be after the wiring issues.

  • olivero

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 5:23 pm

    I’ve already gone through all the wiring, replaced crimps and such, I don’t find anything wrong with the wiring.

     

    I think the pilot is getting blown out somehow, when the unit just sits for 4 days, pilots are on but when they start using it, then it becomes an issue so it must be related to operation somehow.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 5:34 pm

    Not really probable on the Frymasters.  You miss what i’m trying to tell you.  heat saturation and vibration influence connections. perhaps inside a limit or valve. Like contact points.   Or you may have hidden heat damage to the wiring that shorts.  I have also seen a valve coil that was fine on testing until heat saturation and you give it a tap.  They locate that valve in a bad place.  Your DVOM is your best friend in this circumstance.  Go over it step by step.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 6:01 pm
    By how the flames are lifting?

     
    You’d think so, but Frymaster says that the burner flames should ride two inches above the orifice and exhibit a rich
    blue color.

     
    Here’s an old training manual on Master Jet fryers.  It doesn’t include olivero‘s MJCFE model line because Frymaster didn’t make that model line in 2003:
    Master Jet: Atmospheric Gas Fryers

     
    BTW: Here’s the latest service & parts manual on that fryer:
    Master Jet CF Series Gas Fryers Service and Parts Manual

     
    olivero, I take it that this frybank you have (a set of three frypots, per your initial post) is also the same set that had a recent blockage in its filtration system?
    I anticipate that’s the case, by the model number you also provided in the initial post.  The “FM” at its beginning stands for “Filter Magic”.  An old moniker that Frymaster used for their original design of their self-contained filter systems back in the early nineties.


    Attachments:
  • ectofix

    Member
    May 17, 2019 at 6:04 pm

    So, you’ve checked connections, gas supply, adjusted the pilot, etc.

     

    The only OTHER things I can suggest is a INTERMITTENT temp control problem causing the hi-limit to drop out.

    • A sticking gas valve
    • A faulty temp control
    • A weak hi-limit

    I never picked up on what type of temp control you have on it.  Is it Fenwal tstat, electronic control or charged tube & cap for a bellows?

    Can you post a pic of the temp control?

  • olivero

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 3:59 pm

    Okay, center bin once again went out.

     

    So what should I do?

     

    It doesn’t make any sense anymore.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 4:51 pm

    I hate the way JIVE lays out these threads.  It should just be chronological – like HVAC-Talk does it.  NOT this “who’s responding to whom” format.

    I’ll copy & paste what I’d posted above:

    So, you’ve checked connections, gas supply, adjusted the pilot, etc.

     

    The only OTHER things I can suggest is a INTERMITTENT temp control problem causing the hi-limit to drop out.

    • A sticking gas valve
    • A faulty temp control
    • A weak hi-limit

     

    I’ve had your same scenario occur RARELY in the past.  It was worse to deal with then, because I was a field tech who kept getting callbacks on the same fryer. Besides getting “egg on my face” over it, logistics and billing adjustments came into play.

    Since you’re in-house, this entire situation is much more forgiving.

     

    I hate to say this, but you might simply need to throw more parts at it if you can’t get it to act up while you’re watching it. 

    I don’t recall what parts you’ve replaced (this thread is LONG), but I’d begin by VERIFYING that your actual oil temp is INDEED the proper temp that the controller is set at.  If it is, then I suggest replacing the hi-limit.

     

    There IS a hi-limit test you can do by forcing the control to overheat the oil and measure the temp the hi-limit drops out, but instructions for doing so with an electronic control are rather detailed.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 5:05 pm

    Ok, let’s start from the beginning.  Does the kitchen have tile floors with wash down ability

    are the fryers near a steam kettle or brazier.  Trying to rule out a low oxygen level.

     

    I know you have tested gas pressure, so we can rule out supply.  Plus the other 2 are burning ok.

     

    So you are either in a pilot regulator problem or millivolt problem.  Did you do what i suggested before with a miliamp voltmeter.  Preferably a recording one.   I can’t remember if this one had a auto reset high limit.  If so, they could be effecting it when banging baskets.  The reason I asked you to tap the valve is that the coil wiring inside a millivolt valve is as fine of a wire they can make and wind.  A break or fault in the coil will only show up with vibration or heat saturation / expansion like a fryer control area.  and being the valve is right in front of the burner chamber, it gets hot.  Monitoring a voltage over time will show a change of even minor levels.  Being your main valve has 24 volt power, any deviation will indicate either a open, short, or flame change of the pilot.  Use this to your advantage.  Good Fluke test clamping leads are important here.   If you see the voltage go to zero, the high limit is the problem.  If it suddenly rises, the valve.  If you see it fluctuating rapidly (small sudden movements), wiring. 

     

    Make sure you do not assume anything from your previous work.  Start over and go step by step till you find it.  Don’t just change parts without knowing the problem.  It will just waste time and money and may or may not solve it.  I know it feels aggrivating and causes sleepless nights,  but a step by step approach will always come out ahead.  Good luck

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 5:12 pm

    Since we both were responding at the same time and took two different roads,   Your temp control idea effeminately is in the mix.  I thought he had replaced it early on and we were down to the what the hell part.  A intermitant temp control that hangs is one devil to find if you have a auto reset high limit.  I hate auto reset limits.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 6:19 pm

    fixbear wrote:

     

    I hate auto reset limits.

    I do too. 

    The one Frymaster uses is a strut & tube style – probably made by Fenwal.  Trips between 415-435°F and resets at 350°F. 

    I’ve always liked Fenwal tstats as they’re very accurate and reliable, but I’ve never cared for ANY auto-reset limit tstats.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 6:28 pm

    I do too,  but with a manual reset one know for sure about where to look.  With a auto it can be anywhere.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 6:33 pm

    fixbear wrote:

     

    Your temp control idea effeminately is in the mix.

    I still don’t know what temp control he’s dealing with.  I thought electronic, but I’m still not sure.

     

    A picture of the control panel would be VERY informative in order to offer more help.  Although I’d requested one, I’m not getting one.  SO…I’m done here.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 6:58 pm

    relax,  He’s wound up and nervious.  That’s part of the problem of finding that small detail that will solve this.  I’m certain you and I have had the same situation in the past and lok back on it as (did I really do that) or (Did I really miss that step.)

  • olivero

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 7:19 pm

    You guys are on the ball and I’m dropping the ball, sorry about that.

     

    Unfortunately there are other issues that I have been attending to as well.

     

    The controls are electronic in the regard that it does have a 120V plug but I do believe it only powers the filtration system and part of the controls.  Here is the controls.

     

    I do really appreciate you guys helping me with this, it’s a nightmare. 

     

    Im going to dive into it again now and I’ll check the thermostat on it, make sure it’s accurate. It’s not an electric temp control, it looks just like the high limit, probably just a capillary style, no digital readouts anywhere on anything.

     

    As I mentioned, I replaced the thermopile, high limit and gas valve so far. I’ll verify thermostat is accurate and go from there, I’ll also check manifold pressure again. Chefs had to relight it multiple times, it seems to only happen after a while, it’s not right off the bat, an hour or so into it and it starts being a problem.

     

    I’ll try to respond faster and again, sorry for the delay on the controls and thank you again for the assistance.

  • olivero

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 7:33 pm

    Okay, here we go. Latest and greatest. I do agree with the way this goes with the comments, very annoying.

     

    3″ W.C manifold pressure with everything on, all the other equipment and all the burners.

    Temp was set for 355*F and stopped at 361*F so that seems pretty accurate.

     

    going to go through all the electrical again.

  • badbozo2315

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 7:42 pm

    Ah, the infamous Fenwall thermostat. What temperature are the operators running it at? Please tell me it’s not like 400 degrees. 

     

    Here’s what you do: for the first few hours after the first firing-up of the unit, set your temp at 300 degrees, let it run for an hour without any product being cooked. Come back, measure the temp. Should be ~300 degrees. Raise the temp to 350 degrees. Let it settle for say 15 minutes without being used. Come back, measure the temp again, should be ~350. Have them fry off something cheap like french fries. Open the door and just observe. If the fries cook until done without dropping out, stand there and watch what the operators do and have them run some of their normal product, while you stand there observing. Do they insist that they have to turn up the temp to 410 degrees?

  • olivero

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 7:53 pm

    Turned the knob as far as I could get it and the high limit tripped.

     

    Temp was over 410*F when I checked.

     

    Hmmmmmm.

     

    It’s not the high limit, it’s doing it’s job. Must be the thermometer needing to be calibrated, I wonder how hot they run it though, from the position of the knobs when I got there it’s very possible they are running it at top temp.

     

    Just asked, they do run it full blast. I’m going to calibrate it.

     

    I can’t believe I didn’t see this before.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 8:09 pm

    I was going to ask if you ever talked to the cook that used it.  And if you asked him how it cooked compared to the others.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 8:17 pm

    410 is a problem.  No fryer should be able to go above 365 to 375.  The flash point uf oil.

  • olivero

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 8:40 pm

    Yep, top point on the dial is 365*F but you can run it past that so  you would be able to go higher than that just based on design.

     

    Now it doesen’t get near 400*F so that’s probably what it was.

     

    What an idiot I am, lol. I just happened to notice the position of the knobs, I don’t cook and I have no clue how hot stuff gets cooked at but when I asked he said “We turn them up all the way” which is past the 365*F point and in this one’s case enough to trip the high limit and here’s the tricky part.

     

    Chef calls me in because it’s not turning on BUT he can relight the pilot, all this time it was the high limit, but how did the high limit manage to cool down enough to reset by the time the chef noticed the burner wasn’t on. Because of the product, they drop the product in and that cools down the oil enough to need to restart which is well below 425*F (high limit trip) so by the time he gets down there to relight the pilot everything has reset and I’m stuck thinking it must be something other than the high limit because otherwise, how could it reset so fast? But I replace it to make sure.

     

    Funny how it’s all clicking together in my head now on how I was able to miss it for this long.

     

    Asking a little more it seems the center bin was always a little hotter than the other 2 on any temp.

     

    Well, well, well. That would have been good to know when I asked any of the other times.

     

    All along, it was that darn thermostat being out of whack, now I adjusted it and I have a feeling this problem will be gone for good. 

     

    I’m going to talk to someone from Parts Town about changing the way this forum is laid out to make it easier for us. I buy all my parts from them now so hopefully they’ll listen

     

    Appreciate the help guys, I really do. They are deep frying all day tomorrow so I’ll let you know if something happens or doesn’t.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 22, 2019 at 5:01 am

    Ha.  I always have done the LLOH after a few years at this.

  • davejohnsonnola

    Member
    May 23, 2019 at 5:54 pm

    I followed, appreciated, and right up until the “LLOH “understood !

     

    Prefer working on refrigeration but keep getting dragged into the hot greasy stuff.

     

    Appreciate Ecto and Fixbear’ time and knowledge shared, as well as Olivero’s experiences and humility.

     

    Cheers!

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 23, 2019 at 7:45 pm

    We all tried, but kudos to badbozo2315 on this one for his intuitive approach that he’d recommended.  I think there was much learning going on throughout all this as well. 

    We learn as we go.  Otherwise, things would get dull.

  • davejohnsonnola

    Member
    May 23, 2019 at 7:49 pm

    Can never underestimate operator error, lack of training or just plain stupidity or stubbornness of staff.

  • badbozo2315

    Member
    May 24, 2019 at 2:17 pm

    In reality, there should be a stop pin under the knob or a long screw on the flex shaft that will prevent the tstat from going over normal setpoint. But yeah, the operators just turning it up all the way is just bonehead level stuff.

     

    I always like to tell the story of the chef who couldn’t understand why, when he put in 3 inches of water into his large electric tilt skillet, the water wouldn’t get over like 210 degrees, even when the tstat was set to 350. It would just boil. He was serious. I stared at him and blinked. What can you say? A trained profesional…

     

    The things I’ve seen… 

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 24, 2019 at 3:32 pm

    He needed to do a tour in Denver for a bit. 

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 24, 2019 at 6:27 pm

    LOL!!!

     

    Where I work, we address plumbing issues in kitchens. 

     

    Our 3rd shift guys said they once had the three-compartment sink in a dishroom disconnected and pulled out from the wall several feet to replace water supply lines to it (vertical-mount faucets).  It was…sorta like – out in the middle of the floor.  Picture that.

     

    While they were BEHIND it working on it, a night cleaner came along and dumped a pot of funky crap into the sink…which quickly passed through the disconnected drain, splashed onto the floor and onto his feet.

     

    Not even ten minutes later, someone ELSE came along, stopped and turned on the water faucet to fill something. 

     

    NOTHING. 

    They said the look of confusion on this guy’s face as he continued to fiddle with the faucet handles to gain better results…as they stood there BEHIND the sink looking at him – was classic.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 24, 2019 at 7:41 pm

    gotta love those offsets on the back.

  • olivero

    Member
    May 26, 2019 at 9:37 am

    Right, it does and it’s all there. I just think the thermostat needed to be calibrated.

     

    They fried a bunch of stuff last Wednesday, no problems. 

     

    woop. Let’s hope it stays that way.

  • mewservices

    Member
    May 30, 2019 at 5:57 pm

    Not sure if anyone suggested this but try moving the computer from the left fryer that’s working to the center and the center computer to the left and see if the left one starts going out. If it does then you know it’s something  to do with the computer. 

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 31, 2019 at 6:28 am

    No computer.  His fryer uses a Fenwal thermostat.  Looks like he’s solved the problem.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 31, 2019 at 6:42 am

    Because it has a independent millivolt pilot system,  we narrowed down that it was going over temp and tripping the high limit. The electronic part is for monitoring the safety of a drain valve, melt, temp indication, and filtration.  All working.  So the only problem had to come down to the temp control.  Thermostat is where it’s at.  Now why.  A combination of operator miss-training and calibration.  A temp control on a fryer should never be capable of more than 375F.  The high limit is there for when the control fails to stop as a protection.  Good fry fat like peanut, avocado, safflower and sunflower have a flash point of near 450F.  however cheaper fats can be down below 400F.  A trained chef knows that discoloring or smoke is dangerous and set to high.  Problem is the most kitchens use line cook’s on the fryers with no or minimal training on this.  That’s why fryers are so dangerous.  Way back we saw a lot of lard and tallow used in fryers. Smelled good, but not for today’s heath conscious society..

     

    I can’t stress enough how important it is to talk with the operator of a machine and listen to what he has to say of when it happens with a intermittent problem. We have great test equipment today available to us that will record and indicate very minor variations. 

  • mewservices

    Member
    May 31, 2019 at 7:38 am

    Sorry didn’t see that. 

  • olivero

    Member
    May 31, 2019 at 9:09 am

    Very true indeed. 

     

    Sometimes the users information is priceless and sometimes it’s useless but it’s important either way. 

  • badbozo2315

    Member
    May 31, 2019 at 9:50 am

    First thing I would do when starting a job is ask someone, preferably the operator (not a manager!), what does it do or not do, and when, and ask them to show me how they started/ran/operated the unit. It helped a lot if I’d never seen the silly thing before.

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