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  • How do I get the water pipe out if I accidentally took the spray gun off?

    guest created 2 years, 4 months ago 1 Member · 11 Posts
  • guest

    Member
    May 27, 2017 at 12:00 am

    The spray gun on the bottom, the pipe went inside the oven… 

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 27, 2017 at 5:30 pm

    OH NO!  You’re the one in the other post?

     

    The hose reel is pre-tensioned from the factory.  After you let ‘er go, the end of the hose has probably taken several spins around in there – thus loosing tension necessary to pull it back in…even if you DO manage to snag the end and pull it back out.  It would be quite a challenge (and maybe dangerous) to take it apart to re-tension it.  We had a new tech do that and ended up having to replace the hose reel altogether.

     

    HINT:  If you ever need to remove the hand shower again, pull enough hose out of the hose reel to tie a knot in it.  THEN proceed with removing/replacing the hand shower.

     

    My question again:  What’s the model number?  Please provide the 5th digit of your serial number as well.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 27, 2017 at 8:03 pm

    Ecto, I knew you would eventually get to it.  Sebastain,  ectofix has worked on many and know’s what to do with a Rational.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 29, 2017 at 4:38 pm

    FWIW, I replaced a leaking hose reel in a counter-top SCC unit today.  I did some experimenting on how to reset tension on the hose.  Stay tuned…

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 30, 2017 at 5:11 pm

    Never mind.

     

    Yesterday I thought I had a solution.  I’d successfully loosened and tightened the spring tension in my “guinea pig” hose reel.  But this morning I realized that, for realistic circumstances, I should “accidentally” let the hose go and allow it whip around within its enclosure a few times…and THEN attempt to pull it back out and re-tension it.

     

    That turned out to be a big FAIL.  There’s a gear, a lever and maybe a catch inside the enclosure which is designed to work together for operating an internal valve.  This is designed to shut off water pressure to the hand shower when the hose is fully spooled in.  It’s intended to supply water pressure to the hand shower only when the hose is pulled out.

     

    W-E-L-L, letting that hose accidentally go flailing around in there had somehow messed up the water valve’s mechanical control mechanism.  As such, I couldn’t get it back to a condition which would properly open that internal valve.  I fiddled with it for awhile and realized there was only so much I can do. 

     

    I only took this as far as safety would allow.  The hose reel’s enclosure has a yellow sticker on a metal part which comprises the enclosure.  That sticker provides fair warning of dangerous things inside that ‘s under spring tension.  Here’s a picture.  Note the yellow sticker:

    I tend to heed warning stickers.  This one essentially told me to go no further.

     

    A story from my co-worker further proves that.  He said he had a friend who tore into something mechanical (I don’t remember what he said it was).  It had a spring similar to what’s inside this hose reel.  As he took it apart, the flat, sharp, coiled-up spring immediately UNcoiled itself,  “launched” out, entered his skin around his wrist…and came back out around his elbow.

     

    The guy said he didn’t even feel it when it happened.  However, he felt it when they removed it at the emergency room.

     

    The emergency room wasn’t able to just “neatly” pull that spring out of his arm.  As they did, there were numerous “snags”, which did a lot more damage.

     

    There wasn’t much choice in the matter.  It had to come out.

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 30, 2017 at 6:01 pm

    Unfortunately, I’m of the other persuasion.  Guess that’s why I own so many tamper proof tools.  Clock springs are a cruel energy storage device just waiting for the inexperienced to invade there space.  Whether it is a recoil starter, air or liquid line re-tractor, or my favorite, crank up engine starter. (aircraft and diesel).  One first has to know what type of lock’s are on the spring and how to release the tension and re-tension.  Unfortunately, Rational does not want to share such information.  Retract tension has to be tight enough to bring the hose in, but not over tension at full extension.  As for a water control,  not sure what they use for it.  Switch with solenoid?,  or mechanical pop valve on a ramp.  Quarter turn doesn’t make sense without some form of slip on the reel. (sprauge clutch or friction disc).  Not likely. Poppet with ramp on real create a very fine index problem.  Make’s me understand why unit replacement is Rational’s choice.  I’d love to get a hold of one for dissection and repair.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 30, 2017 at 7:27 pm

    I pulled that hose reel back out of the trash can for my 2nd shift mechanical whiz-kid to play with.  I say “kid”, but he’s actually no youngster.  He’s the same one who told me the spring-through-the-arm emergency room story…and often expresses “that’s neat” for just about everything that an engineer has ever designed.  He tries to interpret any and all aspects of what the engineer was thinking when he/she did that.  Makes things fun.  Although a licensed electrician, his mechanical prowess is phenomenal.  I’ve learn much from him.

     

    The valve?  Your description as a “pop valve and ramp” sounds close.  Nothing overly fancy.  Just some plastic gear-looking stuff (I’m not overly mechanical) that appears to work in unison with the spring tension. Something from the spring section (maybe a cam?) causes lever action to open the the valve.

     

    I like your description about “clock” springs – which aptly describes this.  Those are best left within their housing.  If you let them out, they become violent.

     

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    Anyway…there’s a broader point to this.  I am (and you were) a technician.  The OP probably isn’t. I do NOT know his/her technical prowess.

     

    I’ll explore many things to fix it, because that’s what I do for a living.  But I know there are some places I should not go.  There aren’t many, but if it’s unknown territory, I’ll stop there and explore my options…like calling the manufacturer or another tech for input.  There are simply too many risks out there that aren’t worth sacrificing my health and welfare in order to save a buck.  I wouldn’t be asking some simple “blurp” -of-a-question here on the internet to pursue a quick fix.

     

    Someone who doesn’t do this for a living….needs to realize their extreme lack of familiarity in where they’re trying to venture (their limitations) so they don’t open a can of worms that may bite.

     

    It sure would be nice if there was a “how-to” video on YouTube for EVERYTHING a DIYer wants to do for themselves.  But, there isn’t…and there shouldn’t be.

     

    There simply comes a time when the right person for the job needs to be called to perform the repairs…while remaining aware that the right person they called may not yet have all the answers either upon their arrival.  Yet, that right person they called will have the knowledge and resources to see the repair through so the equipment is safely and properly returned back to the factory condition that meets the standards it was designed to meet.

     

    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

     

    Sorry for the rant.  The repeated, how-to questions on here – inspires me to to scream “STOP!  Call the right people to fix it!”

     

    Anyway – from all that, I suggest the OP calls a Rational-authorized service provider to replace the hose reel.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 30, 2017 at 7:33 pm

    SO…who will be next to ask how to convert their oven/fryer/stove to NG/LP? 

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 31, 2017 at 8:02 am

    From the picture I can see it is made of plastic with a tin plate over the swivel fitting side. The box area on the left puzzles me.  I can see that the input line goes directly to the reel swivel fitting.  So valving would have to be external or part of the center shaft tube and swivel. Perhaps a piston valve inside the tube?  Or slide valve.  That would explain your mention of gear teeth   Meaning that some timing/indexing is involved between the reel and valve. It sound’s like for the average tech,  $400 or less reel replacement is the sure and logical direction to go. I know how a 5 minuet job can become many hours.  We’ve all had them.

     

       Poppet valves are very common.   Load pressure helps to keep them closed. able to handle large volumes with a very short movement. Old steam locomotives used a valve body with 4 valves of stepped timing and different sizes on one camshaft so they could crack the input slowly for starting, yet have massive unrestricted flow at full open. All in a 1/4 turn of the cam..  You more commonly see a version of them in a automotive engine.  Also most solenoid valves are poppet with a electromechanical operator instead of a ramp. Relief valves are a poppet with a heavy spring and the pressure side opposite assist side.

     

       Port or slide valves are like hydraulic control valves or steam engine cylinder valves. The simplest would be a cylinder with a piston that closes and opens a port.  But it can also be a sliding plate or “D” valve. The beauty is that one valve can control both input and output. Like a spool inside a cylinder. Commonly seen in pneumatic and hydraulic control with 2 solenoid’s and a centering springs if it has to hold a position. Problem with them is they require clean supply and lubrication.

     

       And as for gas conversion’s,  my real schooling on sensitivity was a Vulcan snorkel with hydraulic safeties.  Wondered why the pilot cost $90 and was constantly a problem every 6 months.  After much research I found out that the pilot was a special reactive alloy to create the proper heat for the hydraulic valve. And someone put a aftermarket in that looked the same, but was not reactive to focus the heat on the bulb. Specially made so that over-fire would not blow up the mercury diaphragm.

  • ectofix

    Member
    May 31, 2017 at 4:38 pm

    Here are some pictures, fixbear.  That’s my filthy paw in the second one. 

     

  • fixbear

    Member
    May 31, 2017 at 6:24 pm

    Thank you so much for the pictures of the inside.  Poppet valve with a cam ramp on the small gear. There should be some sort of timing mark on that gear for the valve actuator timing at assembly.  It may be no more than a small magic marker dot that goes to the cantilever screw.  The cam will probably be high about 270 degrees and a flat for the off position.  Look’s to be a nicely designed system.  And not that expensive to replace.

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