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  • Help on Cleveland steamer

     ryantruck9 updated 1 month, 2 weeks ago 8 Members · 27 Posts
  • scottm

    Member
    October 22, 2019 at 10:30 am

    I have a Cleveland steamer mod.# 24CGM200  ser.# 99469-06L-01.  The problem I am having is the alarm for the ignition keeps going off and unit has to be reset.  The ground is clean.  The ignition module, cable, and ignitor/sensor have  been replaced along with gas valve.  Sensor is in good position over flame.  Sometimes it will run for 5 minutes before going off, other times it will shut down after only a few moments.  Contacted manufacturer and all they said was it’s losing it’s signal.  ( I know that, that’s why I called).  They couldn’t tell me why or where to look.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

  • olivero

    Member
    October 22, 2019 at 10:49 am

    Alrighty.

    Measure the MA signal, what is it?

    Measure tha A draw off either of the wires going to the gas valve, what is it? it’ll be 0. something. It’s important.

    Only so many things can go wrong.

    Verify the Ma signal, if it’s stable and strong, it’s not your flame rod or wire coming back to the IM. 

    If your MA signal cuts out and the flame dies, then check your gas valve, hook a manometer to it and check the outlet port while measuring the A draw and see what happens. 

    If the flame is established which it sounds like it is, you are either loosing the signal, or loosing the flame. 

    Let me know back.

  • fixbear

    Member
    October 22, 2019 at 12:44 pm

    Sounds like your losing flame sense.  That can be a bit difficult to find if intermittent.  Do you have a DVOM that can measure uf amps.  If so, measure the sense current on the ground wire.  It should be 1.5  DC micro-amps. If low, check your  pilot flame to make sure it is engulfing the sense rod,  That the pilot ground wire connections are clean as well as the HV ignition wire.  And that the ignition module has a full 24 VAC

    https://www.partstown.com/modelManual/CLE-24CGM200_spm.pdf

  • olivero

    Member
    November 1, 2019 at 9:51 am

    So what happened?

  • scottm

    Member
    March 5, 2020 at 2:49 pm

    Sorry for my delay in replying, I forgot to. They had an ignition cable for a 300k btu unit (was working on a 200k unit) which was more than twice the length than the one it called for. Since this cable also is the flame sensor to the control module, I reasoned the resistance was incorrect. Put in correct cable and worked fine. Except now it is starting to do the same thing again.

    • olivero

      Member
      March 5, 2020 at 4:06 pm

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      Is that why you posted a thread on flame sensing?

      If so, we should just take it over there for now

  • fixbear

    Member
    March 6, 2020 at 1:11 pm

    This is from Groen;

    With 24 VAC to the ignition module 24 VAC is sent to the gas valve.

    The gas valve is energized.

    The gas valve opens to the initial stage and sends gas to the burner.

    The initial stage for a 200,000 BTU boiler base natural gas is 1.25” W.C.

    The inital stage for L.P. boiler base is 2.5” W.C.

    A spark is generated at the igniter.

    The gas is ignited and the flame rectifies the AC current.

    The ignition module reads 1.5 micro amps DC current through the ground wire.

    If the module does not read 1.5 micro amps DC in 4 seconds it will lock out.

    When the ignition module locks out 24 VAC is sent to the buzzer from the alarm terminal on the module.

    The gas valve continues to open to 3.5” water column in 6-8 seconds for natural gas boiler base and 10” W.C. for L.P.

    Hope this helps. Damn Honeywells

  • scottm

    Member
    March 6, 2020 at 1:58 pm

    Thank You, this does help.

  • fixbear

    Member
    March 6, 2020 at 3:08 pm

    Honeywell’s work fine on HVAC heating equipment. But when it comes to the kitchen environment I prefer Fenwal. The biggest problem with the Carrier rooftops was corrosion of the combustion chamber ground wire terminals. Had to replace quite a few of the fount panels of the combustion chamber/ burner mount.

  • isitfridayyet

    Member
    March 18, 2020 at 12:26 am

    I’ve seen those where the boiler develops a hole and drips on the igniter. It may not start until the boiler heats up.

  • beef

    Member
    March 19, 2020 at 9:25 am

    I’ve found checking the transformer output to the input to verify wether it is in phase or not can solve the flame sensing problem. When you probe the hotsupply leg to the hot transformer leg you’ll get 90ish meaning it’s in phase and good, if you get 150ish means it’s out of phase and the waveforms will create noise in the circuit that will negate the flame current.

    • fixbear

      Member
      March 19, 2020 at 12:18 pm

      Beef, Expand on this please. like what form of measurement is a “ish”

      Transformers are a isolation device. They can be used strictly for isolation or as a voltage changing device. Unless it’s a buck-boost, They are for isolation.

      Depending on the design, they do move the phase angle back a little. Just like any inductance load. Capacitance moves it forward.

  • HTownService

    Member
    December 21, 2020 at 11:57 pm

    I have seen this when the boiler has a hole and steam/vapor/water gets on igniter….

  • Louis

    Member
    December 28, 2020 at 9:53 am

    HawaiiService I’ve got a steamer that had a leak since that was resolved I have an issue with with seems like excessive heat build up in the burner area cooking ignitor cables any suggestions?

    Sorry for hijacking scottm

  • fixbear

    Member
    December 28, 2020 at 10:24 am

    What model steamer and what had to be done to resolve the leak?

  • Louis

    Member
    December 28, 2020 at 10:30 am

    24cgm200 Boiler was sent out to be welded and pressure/heat cycled

  • fixbear

    Member
    December 28, 2020 at 12:08 pm

    Being a firetube boiler, it sounds like flame roll out from a lack of flue venting. They would have had to remove the collector assembly and flue riser. So either you have some tube blockage or something is wrong with the collector installation back on the boiler. The Igniter wires are a high temp wire, so it has to be a lot of heat. But the easiest thing to check first is the flue riser to be clear. After that it’s going to be a bit of disassembly.

    parts

    service

    That’s about a twenty year old unit. How often is it cleaned and how hard is you water? Do you know were they needed to weld it? And was it pressure tested? Hopefully they didn’t just block off a tube or two.

  • Louis

    Member
    December 29, 2020 at 5:46 am

    there was an unused pipe plug that leaked on the side thru the threads the boss was removed and the boiler was pressure tested after the repair I had removed the rear flue assembly and checked it I couldn’t see anything blocking the flue passages that was my first place I looked but I can definitely recheck it

  • fixbear

    Member
    December 29, 2020 at 8:24 am

    Sounds like you may have to clean the tubes. Not a fun job.

  • Louis

    Member
    March 1, 2021 at 6:36 am

    i checked the tubes now that we’ve gotten back to where we need the steamer they were all clear i am drawing at straws on this thing at this point

  • olivero

    Member
    March 1, 2021 at 12:19 pm

    I have a 36 CGM steamer which I do a lot of work on,

    What exactly is your problem Louis? I’m not following with the problem you are trying to solve.

  • fixbear

    Member
    March 1, 2021 at 6:28 pm

    First thing you want to do is verify that the burner is set up for your fuel source. Check both the tag’s and the orifice size to be correct. Then measure the manifold pressure to be correct for the fuel type. One never knows what was changed without documentation in the past. Then fire it looking for proper burn ratio. Flame rollout, or restricted exhaust. If you have a combustion analyzer, check the CO and CO2 . Something has to be off, Since I can’t see , smell, or hear it, I need you to communicate what you find to be able to help you. Check the above and let us know.

  • Louis

    Member
    March 2, 2021 at 4:30 am

    fixbear the unit is a natural gas unit manifold pressure is running 3.3-3.4″ wc spec is 3.5″wc I’ve taken the back off the unit to inspect the exhaust it isn’t restricted I’ve also adjusted the air shutters on the burners to reduce excess air and prevent the flames from lifting off the burners I can get access to a combustion analyzer I will check the burner orifices

    • olivero

      Member
      March 2, 2021 at 10:03 am

      I see, your ignition cable is melting.

      Fixbear I think has you on the right track. I haven’t had much experience with ignition cables melting so it must see some serious heat.

      I wonder if the ignition module could be causing it somehow? Is it really hot in the front where the ignition module sits?

  • fixbear

    Member
    March 2, 2021 at 1:24 pm

    Does it have 8 inches of clearance from other objects on both the sides and rear? The sides are ventilated to keep combustion heat and moisture from building up. The ignition wire insulation is a high temp material rated for over 500F. So you have something drastically wrong for the damage to happen. Perhaps even a foreign air flow blowing on the chimney area.

  • ryantruck9

    Member
    March 3, 2021 at 10:39 am

    the unit must be front flueing to melt that high temp wire.

    I think your gas valve opens to 1.3″WC then ramps up to

    3.5″WC.

    Leave your manometer on the manifold for the entire heat/pressure up and ensure no gas pressure “creep” or hunting

    replace the ignitor /housing (S44096) with a new wire (44169) and the front baffle plate (S44135) insulation. It is likely in poor shape from all the service over the years

    poor condition front baffle could allow front flueing

    Sometimes the flue riser can “bow in” decreasing flow.

    If the unit is level, the front plate and box are new (fairly sealed) operating at the correct gas pressure with clear tubes and an  flue it should not front flue.

    • fixbear

      Member
      March 3, 2021 at 12:59 pm

      Good catch on the ramp up and gasket/bowing.

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