R290

[olivero]

You know, I haven’t had to work on one yet.

But I did attend a class on it from True and Delfield so I was ready for when the day came.

It seems simpler than what we do now, you can purge the propane and you don’t leave service valves on the system, you have to do some sort of odd ball crimp on the tube to seal it.

Also a flammable gas detector is recommended.

Have you done any R290 work?

I’m curious how the units run.

[ectofix]

I don’t do refrigeration anymore, but I know RSES had initially presented training to technicians some years ago when hydrocarbon refrigerants entered the market. True Manufacturing was one of the first to put it in their systems and they have a series of videos of that training:

R-290 Service Training

At the large property where I work, most of our newer R/I commercial units are hydrocarbon-based systems (R290).

I j-u-s-t happened to noticed only the other day that NOW our hotel room refrigerators (Danby units) are hydrocarbon (R600A-Isobutane).

Hydrocarbon refrigerants are everywhere now, so you’d best read up on it from any credible source you can find. It’s not just in refrigeration either. Window-shakers and PTACs are being made with it in them.

System size limitations are mandated for safety concerns (due to the LEL and UEL of hydrocarbons in dwellings/work or living spaces…should there be a leak). So we won’t be seeing walk-ins or HVAC system manufacturers specifying its use.

However, that doesn’t exclude techs from the need to use proper awareness and precautions, since the market (unfortunately) made illegally labeled hydrocarbon refrigerants available by various manufacturers available to the common consumer as recently as five years ago. It was dubbed as R22A and toted as a cheap alternative get a R22 system back up and running. It wasn’t SNAP approved…and also didn’t require a 608 cert to buy it.

The EPA was slow to intervene, so those illegal products were once readily available on eBay, Amazon…and even some big hardware stores (one called ****** King (that was MY censorship).

That period in the open market is all history now since the EPA got the FBI involved to nip that in the bud. However, beings that there was SO RECENTLY an opportunity for any consumer or a cheap/nefarious HVAC tech to dump something called R22A (propane) into a system in order to avoid much higher costs of getting a R22 system PROPERLY serviced (or replaced)…makes me wary of working on ANY system without FIRST testing it with a combustible gas leak detector…before I go connecting a recovery unit to it or applying a flame to fix a leak.

Some time back, an acquaintance of mine told me that his recovery unit “shot flames” when he ran it to recover to a system. He had subsequently determined that a hydrocarbon refrigerant had done that. He was lucky.

There are other stories on the internet where kitchens were destroyed – with a hydrocarbon refrigerant leak being the blame.

There’s also news article on the internet (from Australia) about a tech making repairs to a walk-in and his work-at-hand blew up and killed him. The resulting investigation proved that there was a hydrocarbon refrigerant put in it at some point during a prior repair, but the system wasn’t labeled as such.

[techtownmayor]

That is absolutely terrifying. It is one thing to save a few bucks, it is beyond disgusting to put the lives of kitchen staff or service techs at risk.

Stay safe out there!

[olivero]

Interesting Ectofix.

I’ve done quite a bit of research on R290 and asked at various classes I went to about it.

It’s not all bad, plenty of techs are servicing systems safely as well, but some people are getting caught in a bad way, much as what could happen with anything.

Unfortunately, it’s coming, Europe’s been using it for ages with few incidents so there must be a safe way to do it, it’s a PIA for sure, but it’s not impossible to work on safely.

I don’t even think it has to be recovered from what I remember, and most recovery machines aren’t rated for flammables.

[ectofix]

Here is something I’d written about six years ago in response to homeowners illegally putting R22A into their HVAC systems. AGAIN, that should all be history now, but gives some idea as to some (but not ALL) safeguards the European and Aussies require for the LEGAL use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in HVAC systems:

“Existing HVAC systems in the U.S. are NOT designed with the proper safeguards to avert fire or explosion due to a flammable refrigerant leak. Meanwhile, HVAC systems OVERSEAS that DO employ a flammable refrigerant are specifically engineered with dramatically different installation practices and design standards to prevent a potential fire or explosion due to a flammable refrigerant leak:

Conditioned space usage, size of the space, system design (remote vs integral), refrigerant charge quantity

– Ignition sources are minimized by using electrical switch/component isolation boxes and specially engineered electrical components designed to be spark-proof.

– The HVAC units are required to be located in a separate room that’s free of open flame-heated units such as boilers, furnaces and water heaters.

– Refrigerant piping is installed so that it’s encapsulated with sheathing or dedicated pipe ducting for proper containment, routing and ventilation of any flammable refrigerant leaks to the outdoors.

– Functional combustible gas sensors must be in place to provide notice to occupants through an alarm system and to also activate emergency mechanical ventilation of the machine room containing the HVAC unit. Also, that same machine room must have a ventilation system that maintains a static atmospheric pressure at a LOWER level than the pressure within adjoining living spaces to prevent the flammable refrigerant vapor from migrating into neighboring living spaces.

– There are prescribed limits to quantity of refrigerant charge using class A3 refrigerants, based upon installation location of equipment (above ground, below ground), square footage of conditioned area and type of space use (Occupancy classification: i.e., are people living & sleeping there, is it just storage rooms)

AND… there are many OTHER special design standards that do not exist within OUR systems installed the U.S.

So, as I’ve tried to make clear – AS OF TODAY, these special design and installation standards do NOT exist in the U.S. and, as such, reputable service providers in the HVAC industry do NOT use flammable refrigerants in HVAC equipment. Additionally, they are not equipped or even trained for handling it…yet. Maybe someday, that will change. Meanwhile, our U.S. standards are written, promulgated, published and enforced to deem these flammable refrigerants as ILLEGAL for use in HVAC systems within the U.S.

If a hydrocarbon refrigerant IS illegally used in a HVAC system – at the very least, nothing will happen and there will have cold air. On the other hand, somewhere in the future a HVAC service tech may be wounded by it due to his not knowing that the illegal refrigerant was used. At the very worst, the leak that caused the system to quit in the first place may spill this flammable refrigerant out into the home, garage, crawlspace, attic space…or a void within a wall – IGNITE, cause a fire or even explode.

By the way, although it’s basically propane, this refrigerant will have no odor if it leaks out. Fuel gases like propane and natural gas don’t NATURALLY have an odor. We smell that smell because the odor is added into it for our protection. Even if the same odorant was added to this refrigerant, it would be filtered or washed out through the refrigeration system’s internal mechanical processes. So, if it’s leaking out, you probably won’t smell it.

If a HVAC technician is called to service a system and discovers that there is flammable refrigerant in the system, he/she has likely been told NOT to work on it and to walk away.

If a home insurance company finds out that a flammable refrigerant is in a system, the home’s insurance coverage will likely be voided. If a fire destroys a home and the cause can be attributed to there being a flammable refrigerant in its HVAC system, the will probably NOT be compensated for property losses.”

[olivero]

What you are saying is true Ecto,

Retrofitting an existing system designed for a speicific nonflammable refrigerant to a flammable refrigerant is a horrible and dangerous idea.

These days the machines being sent out with R290 are designed for it with sparkproof enclosures and so forth, like what’s used in the European market.

It’s the equivelant of slapping dual turbo’s in a car that’s not designed for that amount of horsepower, other things have to change in order for that to work properly for an extended period of time.

Doesen’t mean it’s ALL bad, just that the product has to be designed for it’s purpose with the components it uses, it’s not “OEM” if you put R290 in an R22 system, that acquires a risk just like using non OEM parts in equipment does.

Stick to the rules and the design and I don’t see why it wouldn’t work, most Starbucks have R290 units in their locations if I understand correctly from talking to a tech who handles Starbucks in his area.

[Sparky0575]

I haven’t had to work on R290 refrigerant side yet. Was wondering what tool kit everyone is buying and how they are handle the change. i have watched several training videos and it is pretty straight foward . only question about recovery is instead of buying the special recover filter -drum can i just use a typical recover drum in a vacuum and release after ward . it is such a small amount that I don’t see an issue other than if recovery drum is rated for R290.

[olivero]

I got myself one of the Yellow Jacket service kits, haven’t had a chance to use it, but I did a small fridge without anything other than my existing stuff, someone pierced the evaporator and so recovery was not a concern 🙂

I just added it from the can and tried to measure with my regular scale, worked semi-ok, ended up just playing with the charge of 1 oz until it was where I wanted it.

[Denny]

MCD has rapidly adjusted to the R290 craze, and I had to run to catch up since they first started arriving.

I attended several hands on classes at local HVAC houses, (usually a thinly veiled sales pitch from the manufacturer, but a good source of food and info)

For a kit, I chose the Yellow Jacket hydrocarbon kit. Comes with everything you need, hoses, scale, adapters, crimpers, a “Don’t smoke or we will blow up” sign. It’s no different than any other freon job, except for the pressures and the amount of refrigerant.

100% off the record, a head engineer told me that the removal of the service valves was a liability move, plain and simple. The pressures aren’t beyond the capabilities of the core. There may be an issue with the seal and compatibility with the 290, but the valves are approved for hydrocarbon. So, needless to say, I do NOT remove the service valves after I finish. I also use a good quality sealing schrader cap, and give it a good snugging when I’m done.

What concerns me most is that I am using a torch to seal a system now filled with explosives. I can crimp, and crimp, and crimp, but there is not a chance that thought isn’t in the back of my mind, no thank you. (see above referenced story from Australia)

One other thing I do that might be overkill, but I pull a vacuum (or a LONG purge) on both the high and low sides after opening the system, but BEFORE getting the torch out. I also wave the torch in front of the stem before getting down to business.

I can’t stress how much I REALLY don’t want to blow up so, I err on the side of caution. My experience only, yours may vary. No matter which direction you go, make sure you’re safe guys, the energy potential in this product is NO joke.

[fixbear]

How about a Nitrogen purge? And any active refrigeration system benefits from having a inert gas inside when brazing to prevent oxidation and surface flaking inside the joint that can interfere with the metering system.