Rational SCCWE202G Glass Pane Bundle 87.01.415

[fixbear]

Both users and tech’s don’t appreciate what it takes to make and control a Combi-Oven.  Your trying to contain steam and go to higher temperatures at the same time.  And trying to hold a specific temp as well.  Each fights the other.  Now add to that cooking grease and loose material flying around, highly varying intake air quality, wildly humidity changes. and sudden drops of all from product checks. Requiring quick recovery of heat and moisture without overshoot.  Yet it has to be energy efficient. Low on maintenance, safe, and rugged enough to withstand some abuse.  All while keeping the price where someone will buy it.  It also has to be adaptable to different markets and conform with each countries regulations.   It’s a wonder we have any of them.

[olivero]

It’s not that I don’t appreciate them, they are complex and I’m sure it’s not easy to do and takes a lot of time to come up with, doesn’t justify crappy design and poor performance as well as problems that should have been caught in testing but wasn’t, things like that.

 

It’s not easy to make a GP superbike either, takes a lot of design, trial and erroor, but if there’s a problem, it’s not as forgiving, I’m sure the guy on it won’t appreciate it so much if it goes wrong but will if it goes well.

 

I think these oven’s and equipment in general is the same thing, there’s a certain standard that has to be met, and if you aren’t doing it, then your not cutting it and your rep will suffer.

 

Cleveland’s KGL kettle’s is another example, they seem like a total nightmare to get into the combustion chamber on if you have them somewhat side by side, but I’ve never needed to and for that operation over the last 5 years (they’ve still had problems) I would highly recommend them to anyone.

[ectofix]

fixbear wrote:

 

Across the board, Altro Sham over the years has had the best longivity.  Let’s face it, none are perfect.  They also were the first combi.

Combi-ovens are a European invention.  Both, RATIONAL (1973) and CONVOTHERM (1976), make claims that they were first.

As I understand it, ALTO-SHAAM marketed THEIR ovens as “Combitherm” beginning in 1980, but were actually re-badged Convotherm ovens.  Alto-Shaam had partnered with Convotherm to do that.  In 2004,  Alto-Shaam purchased the rights to the technology and continued production here in the U.S. under the Combitherm model line.

 

Back in the ’90s and early 2000s, virtually ALL combi-ovens sold in the U.S. were simply rebadged European-made ovens. 

CLEVELAND combi-ovens were once made by LAINOX. MARKET FORGE combi-ovens were once made by FAGOR.

That practice still holds true TODAY with:

BKI combi-ovens made by HOUNÖ and later – GIORIK. HENNY PENNY combi-ovens made by RATIONAL.

 

Up until the mid-2000s, the European ovens and their technology seemed overly complicated by U.S. standards.  Complex circuitry.  Earlier computerized controls with complicated/confusing user-interface, long turn-around times for repairs (parts coming from Europe), etc. – combi-oven sales never really took off. 

At that time, the only combi-ovens that were prolific in MY market (when I was a field service tech) were GROEN combi-ovens.  They weren’t nearly as complex…and were designed/manufactured right here in the U.S. (Jackson MS).  I only saw them in schools and hospitals.  Places needing to prepare many identical meals at a time.  I never saw a restaurant using them.

 

I think things changed when CLEVELAND partnered with CONVOTHERM (forming a new alliance in the U.S. market after parting ways with ALTO-SHAAM).  With newer electronics technology offering far greater user-interface, F-A-R improved customer support…PLUS – the ovens being made HERE in the U.S.A. (Cleveland OH), CLEVELAND’s reputation as a mainstream manufacturer reopened the door for U.S. customers to give those complex European-style ovens another try.

 

So NOW – ten-fifteen years later, combi-ovens are EVERYWHERE. Walmart uses them.  Chain restaurants use them.  Just about ALL hospitals use them.  Just about ALL hotel and convention centers (like my place) use them.

 

Funny that I still have YET to see any Chefs or cooks capitalizing on the pre-programmed cook cycles.  For THAT matter, I RARELY see ovens used in COMBI mode.

I see them mainly used as just a steamer.  The ONLY use of them as convection oven (just HOT AIR) are the ones we have in our banquet kitchen – where they’re commonly preparing 3000 meals for a group being served lunch.

[ectofix]

fixbear wrote:

 

…also has to be adaptable to different markets and conform with each countries regulations.   It’s a wonder we have any of them.

I laughed at that one.

 

Electrical power standards in Europe are 230v line-to-neutral.  So, their gas ovens would be designed for that.

In the U.S., 120v line-to-neutral is used for gas ovens.

 

To adapt their ovens to the U.S. market, Rational puts a 115v,15a cord on the oven, which feeds directly to a BIG step-up torroidial transformer for 230v.  Everything in the oven that requires 230v – so GETS it.

 

I laughed because…I forgot about that one day while troubleshooting.  My misplaced BACKSIDE of my hand found a live terminal bearing that 230v.

That HURT!  Definitely WASN’T a 120v tingle.

[ectofix]

olivero wrote:

 

Cleveland’s KGL kettle’s is another example, they seem like a total nightmare to get into the combustion chamber on if you have them somewhat side by side, but I’ve never needed to and for that operation over the last 5 years (they’ve still had problems) I would highly recommend them to anyone.

I LIVED that nightmare at my local Buca di Beppo.  Two KGL 40s (I think) side-by-side in a pit (a curb around them).

 

The COMPLAINT? 

When they turned on the LEFT kettle, it went…

BOOM!!! (Uh…I verified that – 

The tack-welds for can-shaped metal mantle burner had failed.  The burner’s metal mantle had fallen off and was laying in the bottom of the heat exchanger. 

Without the designed diffusion of gas mixed with air -upon ignition…the burner CLEARLY wouldn’t work correctly.  I tagged it out, ordered a burner assembly and replaced it under warranty.

 

Credit to PartsTOWN for the photo.

[olivero]

Lol, way to call me out and make me look bad

 

I guess any equipment can have these types of issues, just seems some more than others.

[badbozo2315]

> our banquet kitchen – where they’re commonly preparing 3000 meals for a group being served lunch.

 

Again, EC, I don’t know how you sleep at night.

 

“Yeah chef, the main gas regulator for the kitchens in this building just blew it’s diaphram, I shut the gas off, the plumber says the nearest replacement is in southern California. He’ll be back tuesday when it gets here. You Ok with that, right?”

 

 

[olivero]

Lol, my kitchen does 2200 meals 3 times a day 7 days a week.

 

They got spare equipment, an extra convection oven JUST IN CASE.

 

If they didn’t plan for that with such a big turnout of food, they deserve the downtime, lol.

[ectofix]

Around this time last year (entering the Holiday season), our newest of four 202s went down for a blower motor.  It was warranty (then).  The service provider (Whaley) gave an ETA for the part as “one to two days”.

I’ve never seen such stress in a Chef’s face.  They were serving 6000 the next day for lunch.  They had to employ ovens in other kitchens to get it done.

That was our newest (of three) Rational SCC_WE 202s.

Since then, with all the ovens out of warranty now, I’ve ordered just about EVERYTHING those White Efficiency ovens need.  Stocked and ready for whatever might cause them to go down.  So..I’m ready – I think.

With the Care Control cleanings and my PMs, I’m quite happy with no OTHER problems they could have given me from their relentless usage.

[ectofix]

I assure you that THAT would not happen here.  The clout and FUNDS that upper management has would have it here via FEDEX’s first plane out and at our door tomorrow morning.