Door is leaking steam

[ectofix]

 

[badbozo2315]

It’s funny, Cleveland is the only manufacturer to have a “measure door opening for squareness” line on their startup forms. I wonder why…

 

One of our other techs came accross an Electrolux combi that the door wouldn’t seal properly. The actual glass took on a pronounced bend to it. Out of warantee, of course. 

 

>SO…so long as I can get the oven door to stop bathing the control panel with steam, I stop right there.

 

I love the Cleveland double stacked 22cet steamers that will just fry the bejesus out of timers and switches when, not if, the door gasket leaks because the drain is clogged with goo.

[olivero]

Well, the keyboard did survive and I am still slightly flustered.

 

After realigning the door -.- it now barely leaks, seems like it leaks whenever the compartment is getting pressurized as when water gets flung at the heat exchanger so its much better, but I feel the handle is grinding a bit, its not a smooth close anymore

 

Then while I Was working on it, the convotherm 4 oven had a VFD error which is still under warranty… Woooo.

 

Back to the original issue, There has got to be a way, I am sure if we all 3 put or heads together (or monitors in this case) and try to solve it, we can resolve this chronic steam leaking issue once and for all! (sound inspiring? I am trying)

 

I do not understand WHY its important the door is gapped properly, it should not change the fact that the rubber pushes on the glass and seals but WHY do I need spacers to push the glass out WHY do I need spacers behind the gasket! Just make the door properly so it doesen’t leak!! Man, I get worked up over these things.

 

I think the whole concept of a unit that tall and a door that big and heavy just introduces way too many variables and its just a matter of finding the correct ones and fixing them. When you ran into it, what did you do?

 

SO any ideas? Ectofix, Maybe your violinist has an idea?

[ectofix]

Well HEY now.  Badbozo made me remember something I’d written awhile back for someone (at another forum) about the importance of the drain system in STEAMERS.  Probably NOT the solution to your problem, but just food for thought.

 

I think the quench system setup on your Cleveland combi-oven is like my Rationals by employing a drain box and cycles the condensate (quench) spray based upon temperature in the drain box.  You can quickly verify it’s working by observing the oven’s drainpipe outlet while in STEAM mode.  There should be an occasional, relatively heavy and steady flow of water coming from it.

 

You might’ve already known of this, but I’m sharing it anyway.  Again, this was written in response to a Cleveland steamer question.  Of course, in our combi-ovens, the quench system takes on an extended role when paired up with that cavity vent in the TOP of the oven.  The quench system draws “humidity” from the cooking compartment to facilitate its fancy feature of supposedly having “infinitely variable humidity control within the cooking climate” 😛

 

ECTOFIX wrote:

 

The drain in the cooking cabinet?

Of course, that’s where any spills drain to, but more importantly, that’s where the incoming steam escapes. Behind the cooking compartment is a drain manifold…kind of an offset T, for lack of my brain thinking of a better name. The compartment’s steam escapes down through that T and a water spray nozzle is in the third opening of the T – the top one. While the cooking compartment has steam being fed to it, water is supplied to the water nozzle, which emits a fan-shaped spray pattern inside of the drain manifold. The steam must pass through that, so it therefore condenses harmlessly back into water.
Another term for that little system is the “quench” system. However, it’s more commonly called the “condensate” system.

That condensate system water spray is important for two reasons:

It prevents wafting clouds of steam from escaping from the steamer‘s drain pipe and condensing all over other stuff – the hood, other equipment or up into the steamer‘s own cabinet enclosure.
HOPEFULLY, the drain pipe doesn’t have it draining to a floor drain right underneath itself or other equipment. If it does, then that’s a bad installation. It keeps the pressure in the drain pipe just a tad lower than what’s inside the cooking compartment. The steam in the compartment will take that path of least resistance, which keeps cooking compartment pressure near atmospheric pressure.
WITHOUT that avenue of persuasion for steam to escape, the steam injected into the cooking compartment will otherwise build up a slight pressure within the compartment. So, when a cook goes to open the door, the steam will likely BLOW the door open with some force when the door latch is released. Kinda alarmingly unpleasant and could hurt someone.

 

 

I haven’t touch a Cleveland steamer in years, but I think the condensate (or quench) system on theirs runs the entire time that the cook timer is set to cook something. Some other manufacturers employ what’s called a “drain box” instead of a mere manifold. Vulcan is one brand that does (or used to do) that. With drain box setups, a dedicated thermostat senses drain box temperature and cycles the condensate water on and off based upon temperature inside the drain box.

 

If that Cleveland’s condensate system isn’t working, the water nozzles are probably clogged. Getting them out to clean/replace is a PITA (although maybe not on that one you’re looking at) There’s another Cleveland floor model model with a vertical boiler standing up BEHIND the cooking compartments. Absolutely NO room there to swing a wrench. I had to buy me a 3/4″ drive socket set and some r-e-a-l-l-y long extensions just for that one particular service call, since THAT was the only tool that could get the nozzles out. Having equally large combination wrenches came in handy too.

[badbozo2315]

>You can quickly verify it’s working by observing the oven’s drainpipe outlet while in STEAM mode.  There should be an >occasional, relatively heavy and steady flow of water coming from it.

 

Well, yes, but…

 

>emits a fan-shaped spray pattern inside of the drain manifold.

 

There’s the key. If your orifice/nozzle has worn, or water pressure is reduced, it will no longer be a spray, and just becomes a stream of water down the drain without really quenching the steam. Then you’ll start to build up positive pressure in the cabinet, and your locomotive starts pulling away from the station, shooting steam out the easiest available escape route.

 

A good open drain is essential, with a breaker tee or cup if needed.

 

For giggles, remove the spray nozzle assembly, and with the hose attached, run it for a little bit and see what the spray pattern looks like.  If ok, if possible, remove the drain piping at the machine and run it and see if the door stops leaking. You should not see steam from the drain outlet as it should be quenching.

[olivero]

Well, now were talking.

 

There is steam coming out the drain, might be just really hot water butt I definetley see steam when its running.

 

I am pretty sure it dumps water down, hits the fan and the fan flings it at the heat exchanger. Not sure about a spray pattern, never noticed or heard about it before, nor does it mention in it Clevelands service handbook I found online….

 

This drain line for some reason does not have a vent, Alto shaam’s do and I don’t know why they don’t but it does not say anything about it in the install manual either.

 

Your saying steam is not supposed to come out the drain, I have a lot of water coming out with steam, not steam by itself but water that is steaming when it drains out.

[olivero]

Allright! They have been using the oven pretty much all day and so far, I have yet to see any sign of steam coming out the door…….. I might be delusional or not looking at the right time but its either 100% gone or 95% gone. Looks like realigning the door really did it. Wonder why but seems to have done it.

[badbozo2315]

>I am pretty sure it dumps water down, hits the fan and the fan flings it at the heat exchanger

 

That is how your “spritzer” style combi makes steam, as opposed to a boiler style unit.

 

What we are mentioning is at the bottom inside of the cabinet, there is a drain for water, that leads to a box, off to the side. This box then drains out through whatever drain pipe you have plumbed to it.

And also in this box, is a spray nozzle, that shoots water into the box, and quenches the steam that gets pulled into the box through the cabinet drain pipe.

This produces a condensing effect on the steam, aka quenching, and this condensation of steam into liquid water will actually produce a net vacuum, however slight, that will tend to pull in steam from the cabinet, thus, there should be no steam coming out from the door gasket at all.

 

>Your saying steam is not supposed to come out the drain, I have a lot of water coming out with steam,

 

Ideally that water should be, I dunno really, warm, and no steam in vapor form. If there is a bunch of steam coming out, it sounds like it isn’t being quenched.

 

>This drain line for some reason does not have a vent

 

How long is the run from the combi to the floor drain? And I hope it dumps into a floor drain with no restricions.

[olivero]

Interesting, never heard of that spray type for the condesner, it makes sense though.

 

The run is less than 10 feet. I think one is about 4 feet the other is about 8 feet. They are 2 seperate lines that drain into a floor drain but its going down, there is a gap between the bottom of the pipe and the drain itself.

[ectofix]

If there’s steam coming from the drain pipe, then that could very well be a sign of what Badbozo was saying.  There’s a nozzle in that drain box and the water emitted from it should form a pattern through which the steam must pass through before getting to the drain pipe.  The steam gets knocked down to join with the water.

 

Those nozzles can and get scaled up.  Anything affecting that spray pattern diminishes it effectiveness.  So if the steam in the drain remains steam…while the oven’s producing MORE steam, the slight rise in pressure within the cooking compartment will pushed from around the door seal.

 

The drain pipe is a critical and functional part of overall operation.  Make sure the drain pipe is at LEAST as large as the diameter which they specify.  In other words, no reducing of the drain pipes’ diameter.  Also bear in mind that drain elbows will further impede drainage.  I think I remember a STEAMER’S installation instructions stating no more than three elbows in the drain line.

 

With regards to a drain VENT, read up on its installation guidelines. I HAVE had STEAMER installation instruction say that a T should be installed to facilitate proper venting for the drain.  However, I’ve noticed that Rational doesn’t say any such thing.  AGAIN, I think that little motorized cavity vent (I call it) serves that role for the combi-oven.

 

The overall concept behind that cavity vent and the quench system is that they work together for a measured control of steam evacuation (from the cooking compartment) in order to attain a desired humidity level in there.  The quench system draws the steam out, thus causing a slight reduction in compartment pressure.  With the cavity vent OPEN, dry air is drawn into the cooking compartment.   So the humidity level drops.  When sensors derive a wet bulb-to-dry bulb representation of their DESIRED humidity level, the cavity vent closes.

 

EDIT:  WOW!  Badbozo beat me to the punch!