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  • Carpigiani rewire 230V to 400V 3 phase

     okwestern updated 6 months ago 4 Members · 20 Posts
  • okwestern

    Member
    December 21, 2019 at 10:51 am

    Hello!

    We have a Carpigiani LABO 14 20 M in use in a 230V 3 phase environment. We’re changing location and the new kitchen is only equipped with 400V 3 phase.

    Can this be rewired to take 400V?

    I guess it’s both a question of the compressor and the paddle motor?

  • fixbear

    Member
    December 21, 2019 at 12:24 pm

    okwestern, I have a few questions for you.

    1 do you mean 480 volts, or is this in a different continent than north America.

    2 Is this a batch Gellato machine that requires 3 KW of power?

    3, How long has it been in service?

    I ask all this due to the cost of conversion.  I’m thinking you might be better served by either replacing the machine on a trade in or installing a  transformer to power it.  I do believe that the transformer option would be the most cost effective.  Your looking at replacing the control power transformer, contactor, compressor, and mix motor.  Also if it has pasteurization heat, you may need to replace the heater.  Definitely getting up too more than 50% of a new machine.

  • okwestern

    Member
    December 21, 2019 at 12:44 pm

    1) I think we have something called TN-system (Terra Neutral) in Norway. This was marked 380V in the old days. 
    2) The machine is in storage until we move to the new location, but I want to be prepared for relocation as we don’t have much time to fool around with the machine when we get the keys.

    A Labo 1420M manual says “3 phase 200 or 380V, 2kW”, but I’m not sure if this is the same model year as mine, looks similar though.

    3) We bought it used, so we don’t know.


    I see.

    If the mix motor is a 230/400V (rewiring from delta to star wiring takes care of that).

    I have wholesale purchase accounts so I get high quality contactors for about $20-25. Power transformers are also relatively cheap.

    The compressor is another story. Replacing and refilling will be around $600.

    Out of curiosity, how much is a Carpigiani with same capacity as the Labo 1420M?

  • fixbear

    Member
    December 21, 2019 at 1:20 pm

    Didn’t realize you were in Norway.  That explains a lot.  Also with your Varimixer.

    You may best be served by calling Carpigiana on this.  As for cost, that varies country by country.  I think they are about $4000 here, but I’ve never seen one as the frozen custard machines are popular here.  A low temp compressor of that HP would cost about $1200 or more to replace here. That model isn’t even in Partstowns system.  So I’m just guessing on that.  I don’t have any knowledge of your electrical codes in Norway, so I’m at a disadvantage on ways that are acceptable to do a work around.  I have done several equipment moves to a new building that I had to install a transformer and a sub panel to supply several machines.

  • fixbear

    Member
    December 21, 2019 at 1:21 pm

    I just realized that that means you are also 50 cycle

  • okwestern

    Member
    December 21, 2019 at 1:32 pm

    I’ll have to take a look at the compressor when I have the machine. I’m sure there are economical substitutes for the compressor with same specs. A transformer this size will probably be $7-800?

    Yes, we’re at 50 Hz.

  • fixbear

    Member
    December 21, 2019 at 2:03 pm

    A set of 3,  5 KVA buck boost would only be less than $400 here.

  • okwestern

    Member
    December 22, 2019 at 4:43 am

    You don’t happen to have the service manual for the Carpigiani? Or any other one (I guess many of them are quite similar)?

  • fixbear

    Member
    December 22, 2019 at 12:58 pm

    The closest thing I can find on you model is the operation and install manuals. The equipment they market here is built for here by a company they bought out due to the vast differences in electrical codes  https://www.machineryworld.com/pdfs/Carpigiani/Carpigiani-Labo-Manual.pdf

    They guard their service manuals, so you’ll need to contact them for more.

  • fixbear

    Member
    January 8, 2020 at 6:43 pm

    Just so you know,  They were Cold-A-Lite here before the merge.  I still believe them to be the best soft serve machine.

    • okwestern

      Member
      January 9, 2020 at 9:21 am

      I can’t seem to get my replies posted. Maybe too big images?

    • okwestern

      Member
      January 9, 2020 at 9:22 am

      Now it allowed at least one post… I’ll try to upload the images in the next post.

      I finally got around to open the machine. Seems the compressor has a separate motor (blue motor, see picture) which can be either star or delta wired so it is definitely 230/400V interchangeable.

      Same goes for the beater motor (green motor, see picture). I’m not sure how this is connected since the terminal board doesn’t have a star nor delta connection(?). Shouldn’t there be bridges on the terminal board (I’m new to wiring these motors)?

      The solenoid coil (light blue Danfoss 018Z) is 230V.

      It seems to have a timer(?) in the front. Also 230V.

      Contactors, ABB B12-30-10 probably has 230V coils (although contacts might be rated for 400V, they usually are). And most times the coils are replaceable.

      According to the schematics, it should also have three overload protections and a pressostat (they all might already be rated for 400V), and a fan motor (MV) which probably is 230V.

      As far as I can identify, these are the only components depending on power.

      If both motors can be simply re-wired to star configuration, then only solenoid coil (7-8 EUR), timer (unknown, but this can be cheaply replaced with a China digital one), contractors (I get them for 18 EUR a piece – but maybe the coils can be purchased separately, even cheaper) and fan (8-15 EUR) needs to be replaced.

      Any thoughts about a full 400V re-build?

      I’m also considering this 400->230V:

      https://www.banggood.com/5_5KW-380V-3-Phase-VFD-Variable-Frequency-Drive-Inverter-Motor-Speed-Controller-p-1303435.html

  • okwestern

    Member
    January 9, 2020 at 9:24 am

    first batch

  • coldsidecommander

    Member
    January 9, 2020 at 9:26 am

    I have access to Carpigiani service manuals and I don’t see that model… you would have to call Carpigiani direct. Their US number is 1-800-648-4389.

  • fixbear

    Member
    January 9, 2020 at 10:34 am

    Carpagiana timers are special to the machine. They are about $450 here. 

    The overloads can be reset for the amp reduction.

    I don’t know if in Norway they have to attach a wiring diagram of the machine,  But here it’s required.  So look around inside the covers for one.  If so you may be able to just run a nuetral wire and pick up your 230V for the controls.  If not you may be able to install a small control transformer for them.  Also look for a control supply circuit. It may already have a control transformer for it that has multiple taps.

  • okwestern

    Member
    January 9, 2020 at 11:25 am

    second batch

    • fixbear

      Member
      January 11, 2020 at 12:04 pm

      This is a simple fix.  Your wiring diagram shows the control side on the right. If you can rewire the motors to the 400V, the cheapest option would to be a control transformer to 1 and 2 on the control supply side.  Providing you have the room for it in the cabinet.  It’s only going to be 12 cm square and maybe 10 cm high

      Optionally if you can get the 230V to a neutral, Disconnect 2 and that would go to the nuetral.

  • techtownmayor

    Administrator
    January 9, 2020 at 12:24 pm

    Disclaimer: I’m not a foodservice equipment expert, but having studied as an electrician in Europe I hope I can help a little bit here, even if it has been 20 years since I last tinkered with anything 3 phase… As with all information online, my reply should not be used as a true reference, and only a licensed local electrician should be working on these voltages

    Star 3 phase (between neutral and a phase) is 220V (nowadays 230V) and delta 3 phase (phase to phase) is 380V (nowadays 400V) – but I see you clearly understood that from your replies.

    I’m guessing that the machine was previously setup in star with 3x 220V phases and a neutral. Are you positive that the 3 phase distribution the restaurant has isn’t simply wired for delta only (which would explain the 400V supply)? 

    Would it be possible to grab a multimeter and measure what you have from neutral to a phase or is it just a lack of a neutral on your supply?

    I’m wondering if it would be easier to find a way to do some rewiring so you go from 3 phase only (no neutral) with 400V to 3 phase and neutral (so you get access to 230V). You may need to have a ground pole drilled, but that is still cheaper than trying to get the machine running on 400V. 

    Only a really old IT style supply in Norway would be the weird out of phase 440V/220V RMS, but I’m pretty sure that was residential only.

    I hope this all makes sense…

  • okwestern

    Member
    January 11, 2020 at 12:31 pm

    Of course 🙂 Neutral to phase gives 230V. So rewire beater and compressor motors to operate at 400V, and hook control side 2 to neutral and keep 1 to the phase.

    I’m sure the compressor motor can be rewired (since the name plate indicates both delta and star connection), but I’m not sure about the beater motor. Isn’t the way to go between delta and star to reorganise the bridges in the terminal board? The beater motor have no bridges…?

    EDIT: I was too quick. Looking at the terminal board of the beater motor (green painted motor), it is actually delta configured (it’s bridged with terminal crimps and cables instead of metal plates). I just have to connect all the top pins together. Then parallell connect the incoming (left) and outgoing (right) cables at the bottom connections of the terminal board. Sounds good?

  • okwestern

    Member
    January 11, 2020 at 12:44 pm

    By the way, the current cabling is 3 phases + ground (blue connector), but our new location will supply 3 phases + neutral + ground (red connector).

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